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#1
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: leon
First of all I think there is no doubt that the consensus on this board is that SGC is the most consistent grader of vintage cards and I would agree with that. However, I am not sure I agree with my good friends on grading this one. It was cut down to size on all 4 sides. I guess it's a technical issue but I wouldn't think it would be different than an All Star Baseball card that has had the All Star cut off of it, which they won't grade. This type is in the 2006 SCD, on page 145, as 1910 E-UNC..I do think there needs to be a better standard for grading this type of card, strip cards and other cut outs, in general..thoughts? |
#2
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: honus3415
This does appear to be a perfect example of the dilemma that the grading of a hand cut items creates. |
#3
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: zach
I really don't think that should be graded anything other than authentic. These cards usually come in the same shape the Wagner is in, four borders but I have seen a Mathewson with what looks like the full side of a candy box and then the cards were cut from it. So the cards were obviously hand cut from some type of candy box or something similiar to a candy box, maybe some kind of candy wrapper ? I say this because they are made on a thin rice paper so seeing a box able to support a piece of candy made out of just rice paper doesnt seem possible. Either way these are hand cut cards, what they were cut from, a candy wrapper or thin panel of a candy box is unknown, but I do believe this is a perfect situation when the authentic grade needs to come into play. |
#4
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: WP
In the SCD catalogue it is a little ambiguous whether or not the diamond is part of the card. They did labal it as such. |
#5
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: fkw
to ad to your checklist |
#6
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: zach
Ahah, thanks. I should have check SCDs checklist before posting mine. |
#7
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: jay behrens
The thing I find most interesting is the notation on the label of the Toy Town stamp. I woudl assume they will do this with any card the stamp. |
#8
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: barrysloate
In my last catalog auction I had a Matty that my consignor brought to SGC before he sent it to me and they wouldn't grade it because it was hand cut. The borders were no worse than this one. To grade one and not the other sets a very bad precedent. It shows a lack of consistency, as well as their having no real policy in place. Either both should have been graded, or neither. |
#9
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
I have discussed the use of the authentic label with SGC in another context a few months ago. I was told that one of their priorities is creating some specific guidelines regarding cards slabbed authentic. I believe that they recognize the problem and are working to fix it. |
#10
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: identify7
IMHO: no adult in 2005 has the right to criticize nor evaluate the choices, asthetics, nor the talents of a kid's actions nominally 100 years ago. These items are a valued part of our Americana. As such, the differences among each example is something to be appreciated. |
#11
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: tbob
I agree with Barry 100%, how in the world can you grade this (and even give it a "Toy Town" credit on the label, that's weird)and not grade one of the many, many T212-1 1909 Obaks which have no frameline on the back and are handcut. They wouldn't even grade them as "authentic." Makes no sense... |
#12
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: barrysloate
You almost get the feeling they graded this Wagner in error, and that if they had the chance to review it again, they would reject it. |
#13
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Kyle
Perhaps its a fake? Doesn't the label, particularly the cert. number look a little funky? |
#14
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: barrysloate
I believe the card is real, and in fact it's a pretty desirable card at that. I just feel it doesn't meet SGC's minimum standards for what they will grade. I just think they goofed. They are still the best grading company though. |
#15
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Kyle
I meant to say maybe the holder is a fake, or the card was swapped out somehow. I do think it looks like an authentic card... |
#16
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
I dont think the card or the holder are fake. However, what is really surprising (and so far overlooked) is the grade - how does it get a 50 when it has a stamp on the reverse? The highest grade a card should be able to get under their scale is a 30 if it has ink or pencil markings. |
#17
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
If we can set aside the number grade vs. auth argument for a minute, I believe that SGC grades this card on its merits assuming that no stamp is there and then puts "toy town" on the flip as sort of an overprint qualifier. The same thing would apply if PSA was grading a card with a stamp on the back. If the card were VG without the stamp, PSA would grade it a 3 (mk). |
#18
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
By the way, Toy Towns are the best! |
#19
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
I have to disagree. If the card were one that has a known overprint, that is one thing. This is simply some collector who put toy town stamps all over his cards. Its not an overprint, its a mark. PSA grades normally and puts MK qualifier on it. SGC does not grade in that manner. The mark is considered as part of the technical condition of the card. |
#20
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
I will also put this to a test - I just recently sent sgc a very nice t206 cy young with an "RS" stamp on the back. I guarantee it comes back no better than a 30 despite it being originally graded a PSA 4(MK). |
#21
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
Ba humbug. |
#22
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
The difference is that a Niagra Baking stamp is an advertisement - not a stamp that came in some kid's game. While we may never know the motive behind a particular stamped advertisement (ie advertising or making sure the stamp had ink) we do know that many blank back cards were intended to be used for advertising (and left blank intentionally). The wagner is cut from a candy box/wrapper. Not the same. |
#23
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Wesley
Niagara is in the ACC. Toy Town is mentioned in the Standard catalog. I think SGC appropriately graded these cards notwithstanding the stamps but with notation there is a stamp. |
#24
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
I think toy town is mentioned in the ACC only because of the shear volume of cards that were stamped by the particular collector(s). The other main difference is niagra baking (to my knowledge) only occurs on one particular type of card. Toy towns are on everything under the sun, much more random and much less likely to have been "issued" intentionally. |
#25
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
The e101s that Niagaras are on were not blank backed. The stamp is placed on the card as it was issued - the card was not issued blank backed specifically for advertising purposes. |
#26
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Wesley
Overprints are not a part of the actual printing process, so there is always ambiguity as to when the stamping occurred. Who knows when Blomes Chocolate, Niagara Baking, or Old Put really stamped the cards? If I recall correctly from the standard catalog, Toy Town was a game issued in the early 20th century and it is estimated that the cards were stamped in 1910. Most people are confident that the stamps mentioned above including the Toy Town stamp are period. I think that is the difference between the overprints mentioned above and the "Property of Wesley" or "RS" ownership stamps that are likely not to be period. Toy Town obviously was from a game and not a company trying to advertise it's product. IMO the way SGC notes the stamp is fine and creates no confusion about the technical grade of the card. |
#27
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
If that is the case, I want my rs stamped cy young graded a 50 with an "RS Stamp" notation on the front - doubt it will happen though. |
#28
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
In addition, to date, no one has ever been able to produce a "toy town" stamp or the childrens game that it supposedly comes from. How can you be certain that this is the definitive origin? |
#29
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
since no one has definitively determined the origin of the "mysterious" RS stamp, I guess it should be treated consistent with the toy town stamp? |
#30
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
Josh - it's probably just you, in a drunken stupor, marking your cards and forgetting what your initials are. |
#31
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
Damn, you found me out. |
#32
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: jay behrens
Richard, youa re wrong that a Toy Town game has never been seen. A complete one missing only the stamp (go figure) was sold recently. I am sure there are others out there, but since most of look maily for cards and not toys or games, it isn't likely that we see it as often as it actually turns up. |
#33
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
finally someone has enough common sense to agree with me |
#34
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
btw - since I have never seen it, where on the card does the niagra baking stamp appear? is it reasonably centered and if there are more than one, are they usually in the same or similar location like the majority of overprints Ive seen or does it (they) show up all over the place (ie not in a consistent location) like I believe is the case with toy town stamps? The former would indicate intent while the latter would indicate a kid playing with his stamp - much in the same way my 3 year old daughter likes to color on the back of my business cards. |
#35
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: fkw
Here is a scan of a Niagara back taken from an old auction catalog. |
#36
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
if you read the niagra stamp, it references the card - it is obvious that it was a promotional overprint. There is no reason to believe that was true in the case of the toy town stamp. |
#37
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Peter Thomas
I submitted a Wagner card just like the linked one to SGC and they returned it indicating that they only graded that 1910 candy issue with the full diamond cut. I might give it another shot. |
#38
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Brett
Josh, thats a nice Joss even though its graded a 1. |
#39
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Peter Thomas
Josh - your Joss is what it is and what it is is very nice. |
#40
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: scott brockelman
I have always been amazed that they grade W555's the way they do, i have seen so many that were cut down in SGC 70-84 holders that were nothing but a trimmed example, authentic only should have been the grade. they continue to do it and knowledgable people buy the original W555's and cut them down and send them in for grading. |
#41
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: robert a
W555s are tough. What if a w555 has been cut with "extra borders?" Should it lose a grade or two? If they're going to grade cards cut from a box, there needs to be a specific policy in place at grading co's that is consistent and recognizes the dynamics of each issue. |
#42
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Anson
Richard, nobody really knows why the second half of E101 backs are blank. Because the fragment ends with a comma, many believe that it WAS designed for individual advertising or stamps. However, I doubt any of us will ever know. |
#43
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: quan
the toy town stamp to me is a back stamp and is not an overprint since it does not make references to anything, like the e94 overprints or e98 Old Puts. They are found on various backings of different e and t issues and does not carry any extra premium to me. I would not pay more, and consider them a deterrent like the other initial back stamp of previous owners. Some like Richard think they are unique and collect them, maybe he's the genius and I'm the idiot, but... |
#44
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Josh K.
Quan, |
#45
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Wesley
"PSA have always given TT the MK marking, and SGC had always marked a TT card down at least 2 grades from what I saw." |
#46
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: robert a
Remember this one Quan? Looks to me like GAI knocks it down. They don't mention anything about the stamp or marking on the front. |
#47
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: Richard
Robert - do you mean that GAI doesn't knock it down for the "toy town" stamp? Because that one sure looks like a 2.5 without the stamp. |
#48
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: tbob
the toy town stamp to me is a back stamp and is not an overprint since it does not make references to anything, like the e94 overprints or e98 Old Puts. They are found on various backings of different e and t issues and does not carry any extra premium to me. I would not pay more, and consider them a deterrent like the other initial back stamp of previous owners.> |
#49
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: robert a
Richard, |
#50
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SGC grading of this card?
Posted By: quan
if that is so then sgc has been inconsistent about the toy town this whole time. you might've remembered the e97 kelly psa4 that was in botn's website that belonged to bcd, that card was an sgc30 when bcd had it...it crossed to a psa4mk...and checking the owner's sgc registry it is back to being an sgc30...all the while with the toy town stamp. |
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