lawsuit against psa for 10.5 million awarded to........

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Bill:

Was the card "trimmed" from a full strip or full sheet and therefore cut to prefect size...

or was it "trimmed" ever-so-slightly around the egdes?

If the card is UNDERSIZED... I would think that people would have easily noticed this over the years as the card was displayed with OTHER T206 Wagner cards, etc.

Tell us more!!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

It's not every day that the author of "THE MONSTER" graces us with his presence!!!

BILL: Please share with us the pedigree of the card!!!

PLEASE!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm glad someone had the guts to step forward with the story that we all knew but dared not tell. I don't know Bill, but I've just gained some respect for him. I wouldn't have done it. Too much grief.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Any more details?-fascinating.

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Posted By: andy becker

welcome bill! i saw your post in the t206 variation thread and wasn't sure if it was really you...or a prankster.
who those who don't know, bill is an icon. he really did write the book on t206.

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Posted By: Glenn

Someday I'll tell my grandkids I was on the VBC forum on the morning Heitman revealed the truth about the Gretzky/McNall Wagner.

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Posted By: jay behrens

If I remember correctly, the card was oversized and trimmed down to spec.

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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Posted By: William Heitman

Jay Behrens has it just about right. The card was oversized and the image was skewed. It was trimmed to make it look right and is slightly thinner than it should be.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Wow!

Are their any scans (if the scanner existed back then) or even color copies of the card BEFORE it underwent this "slimming and straightening" procedure??

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Posted By: warshawlaw

they prefer the term "size-challenged" to describe the condition of the pre-trim Wagner. Sheesh, no sensitivity around here...

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Posted By: Chris

Can you imagine being the guy who was given the task of trimming the Wagner? How did the guy not have a nervous breakdown with that much money involved?

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Posted By: Larry Gladstone

It was quite amazing to hear that Bill Heitman is still around... you are still active and it is great to see another "oldtimer" come back to the hobby and post. From what I recall, there was a dealer here on Long Island(name withheld)during mid 1980's, whom I transacted with prior to grading.. He had acquired a sheet with the Wagner on it and sold this item to a major dealer/collector....In time, this sheet was cut down and the Wagner in the PSA holder possibly was from that acquisition.

Bill Heitman- I always enjoyed talking to you from the early days of collecting and had lots of fun during my youth transacting and talking about Obaks,Ramlys and other tobacco cards, and the hobby was just coming into its own during the early and mid 1970's. I will always cherish that era....I am glad you are still around...Larry Gladstone, now 44.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I remember that Lew Lipset disclosed that this card was trimmed and that the fact was well known when the card first traded in a holder. It was in his Old Judge newsletter in the mid-80s.

Given Copeland's thirst for high grade, I believe there are many early PSA slab jobs of trimmed cards. I have more than one T205 and T206 that rattle around in their holders.

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Posted By: WP

Do you think that the T206 Plank PSA 8 is similar to the Wagner???

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Compliment-wise, "Quite amazing to hear you are still around" about ranks up there with "You're still alive?" and "I would've guessed you're much older."

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Posted By: William Heitman

Since I first made a comment on this board, I have received replies that expressed surprise that I was still alive and that I was still around. I am both. I have lived in the same home for 28 years now and am very well. Thank you.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The comments are no doubt due to the length of your perceived absence and not your relatively young age. Post at least once before the end of each December, and everyone will know you're still kickin'. Leon has said that if I don't post for two consective days, he'll assume I've been devoured by wolves and pay his respects to my family.

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Posted By: Rick

While i have heard many times that the Wagner is possibly trimmed this is the first time i have ever heard it from a person whose credibility is above question.

However ...its still mostly hearsay...there is no proof, no pictures, no one who has actually held the card in their hands.

the guy who found it, Mastro and the people who has have actually own all say its fine and unaltered.

Myabe Hal could upgrade his wagner and we could then know for sure.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know and, to be serious, don't care whether or not the card is trimmed. A trading card that only corperate magnates and superstar athletes can afford doesn't excite my senses. Someone who can pay $1 mill for a card can't handle it on his own.

Whether it involves a 1952 Topps and coperate interests or a 1990 Donruss and dad's paper cutter, card trimmers are losers who need to find real lives to live. To me, trimming a trading card ranks up there in the world of loserdom with putting a mirror on your shoe to look up 15 year old girls' skirts on the bus. It's not so much that I despise card trimmers and AAA paperstock cutout and private auction PRO card sellers, as I think they're pathetic. That trimming results in large profits for the owner or a corperation doesn't make it less pathetic to me. If anything, it makes it more. At least the upskirt guy wasn't doing it for money.

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Posted By: William Heitman

A company puporting to be a grader or authenticater is only as good as the people doing the work. By 1980, I could tell whether a pre WWII card was authentic or trimmed just by examining it closely. Why? I had handled so many of the cards that it almost became a sixth sense. The grading services would do the hobby a real service if it hired people who really know the cards. To me, there just is no excuse for slabbing an M116, and labelling it a T206.

I see quite a few names popping up in these threads. Some were notorious in the 1970's and 1980's for selling trimmed and altered cards. It's frightening to think how many trimmed E cards have been put into people's collections. Or how many N300 Mayo's have been put away whose borders were carefully marked up with markers to make them solid black. And I don't think it is a giant leap to say many of these have been given a grade by the grading services. I just don't think there are too many people to be trusted when it comes to grading and authenticating and some of those who cannot have their names come up an awful lot as experts.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

misinginaction5@aol.com

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Posted By: Brian C. Daniels

there is a well known and informative dealer on THIS chat board who has photos of the Wagner before the surgical procedures. Maybe at some point,he will expose and share these.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Yes there is.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I have a question (ok, a few) -

If it is proven that the McNall/Gretzky was in fact trimmed, then what does everybody think the repercussions would be?

Will we see headline news being made?
Will Keith Olbermann be reporting "live" from Newport Beach?
How negative will it be for the hobby?
How negative will it be for PSA?
Will there be problems with selling graded cards?

You don't have to look to far with PSA to wonder if they grade trimmed cards - look at the Harris collection...

I guess it boils down to "knowing" that the cards were trimmed before they are graded and "intentionally" grading the trimmed cards.

Also, do you think that they just passed the Wagner and Harris cards to their everyday average graders? Somehow, I don't think so. So now the question becomes - WHO knew about the trimming and WHO assigned the grader?

Lots of questions - big topic... one that a lot of people would just like to see "go away"...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I say the whole thing gets swept under the carpet.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

somewhere, and soon. Seems to me the more time that passes, the greater likelihood that someone could take advantage of the whole charade by claiming things like: "It's been ____ years and someone would have stated publicly by now if it were trimmed--since they haven't, it must not be so". Not to sound overly-concerned or morbid, but those with first-hand knowledge will have their memories fade and become susceptible to being caught in inconsistencies the longer time passes--eventually they will die off and "the good evidence" will disappear.

I personally don't think the hobby will suffer much if at all by the truth about the card, depending on how that truth comes out. However, if any inquiry leads to lies, cover-ups and seedy conduct, that might be a different story, at least as it reflects on those involved.

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Posted By: leon

The owner, Brian Seigle (sp?), came on the old chatboard, Fullcount, and somewhat defended the card although maybe not it's condition. He made a very eloquent statement saying the card almost transcends card collecting and is at some higher level. He spoke about it in the context of bringing folks into the hobby, being a great media piece, and it being the holy grail of card collecting. He also stated that he went around to grade schools (I believe, but schools for sure) and spoke about cards and collecting which gives more publicity to the hobby....which in the long run is good. It really put the card in a little different light. He was very well spoken, said his piece, and left. regards

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Posted By: William Heitman

I am not going to hame names, but the grader on Wagner was not a long time baseball card guy, but he was a long time friend of the owner from his involvement with coins. The grading services, in large part, have not sought out long time collectors or dealers. They have approached this as more of business that has very little to do with expertise.

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Posted By: Rick

There is a reason that they do not hire experts...they cost a lot of money.

grading fees have actually come down over time and if you factor how much the actual cards have risen in value as well as inflation for the last 10 years...the price to grade and authenticate a card are dirt cheap.

add increase competition and you will see how they simply can not spend the money to make third party grading as good as it could be.

3rd party grading its a neccesary tool when it comes to buying cards over the net which is how most of us buy and sell cards nowadays.

Its a tool ..thats all, its not a subtitute for real knowledge.

you get what you pay for.

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Posted By: Rick

On the wagner ...does it matter?

The card is real ...wether or not it has been altered ...its all speculation.

Has anyone on this board ever touch the card? ..seen it raw?

where are the pictures, the proof?

Nothing.

PSA says its real ...and they will say so until they turn blue ...because no one wants to take the bad PR and a buyback of 1 mill +

Mastro will say its real, every single previous owner will say its real.

It might as well always been unaltered for practical purposes.

This whole back and forth about the card simply adds to its mystery , its allure...its truly the holy grail of cards.

and as such it will have its critics and none believers...hell i have seen some pretty convincing stuff about the landing of the moon conspiracy.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Rick--I think you are missing the point. I agree that the card brought a lot of attention to card collecting. I could say so much more, but it would only lead to argument upon argument and badmouthing. My knowledge is not speculation and I do have first hand knowledge. I'll leave it at that. I will say that those of us who collected so many years ago dug and dug and dug for cards. No amount of publicity could stop us from digging. Seeing a trimmed card become the standard against which everything is based, snd, seeing flawed grading services become so important in a very artificial way, has stopped a lot of people from digging. Cards that were once considered treasured possessions should never become just another commodity.

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Posted By: Rick

I have a lot of respect for you and many of the old timers.

Your opinion on this card holds tremendous weight on the subject.

That being said ...A lot of old timers have their axes to pick with grading companies, for whatever reasons their opinions are usually negative and the wagner is the usual target.

3rd party grading its here to stay ..its far from perfect but its needed.

The hobby has grown too much...

Its not fair to neglet many of the good things that 3rd party grading adds to the experience of collecting.

I like the ease of buying graded cards, the set registry etc..

the problem is the over reliance on graded cards, i believe collectors should study cards and become aware of trimming coloring etc.. regardless of the holder.

and yes some people treat graded cards as stocks ...but not everyone, i guess that its just the way it it now...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

RICK

I for one, and I know at least one other Forum member, have
seen and held this Wagner quite a few years before it became
famous.
We saw this card at the Willow Grove (PA) Show in the late '80s.
One of the great "happenings" of this Show would occur prior to
its start. All the dealers and veteran collectors would arrive at
the Motor Lodge there by noon (Fri) and some of the best BB card
deals would be transacted in the rooms of the Lodge.

Well, the talk of the Show that weekend was this very Wagner.
Everyone was checking it out and the price on it (if memory
serves me) was something like $30,000. Too rich for most of us.
Furthermore, the concensus of opinion of most of us was that it
appeared "trimmed".

You wondered if anyone saw it in the RAW, well there are at
least two who have right here. I will leave it up to the others
to speak for themselves.

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Posted By: Brian C. Daniels

remember a New Jersey cop name Dave Dugan or a dutch guy named Tony Yordan?

They did the room to room thing at ft. washington. There was also a guy named John who was a big Matty collector and an accountant for the boys scouts who suddenly died around 1993(?) or so how was in the fun as well. I bought many Matty cards and items from him.

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Posted By: Rick

late 80's...

then who did the trimming?

who owned the card?

can you tell if the card has been altered since you first saw it?

If the rumors are to be believed, wasnt the card oversized by the time PSA came along? are you saying the card was short back then?

was it the edges that made it look trimmed or the size?

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Posted By: Anonymous

well to me it looks trimmed. look at a graded 8 card comepared to it. the wagners side borders look alittle smaller than the others i have seen. but its only my opinion..... plus it was PSA's first grading, could they have learned something from it?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Rick

How do I know who trimmed it ? What I recall from seeing it firsthand
almost 20 years ago, was that it appeared at least Excellent. I person-
ally did not have chance to make any judgement whether it was trimmed
or not.
Others at the Show, more knowledgeable than me, made that determination
after closely scrutinizing it. And, this fact I believe caused the owner
(who will remain nameless here) to go back home with it. It was not the
price he wanted for it, because there always are many "big $$" dealers
at the Philly Show, I believe it was the suspicion of it being "trimmed"
that prevented it from being sold there.

You seem to be very contentious about this and also about "older" people
in the hobby and our opinions of the Grading services.
Well, we've been there....done that....and thank God we still have great
memories to draw from. If you choose to dismiss the experiences of guys
like me, that's your prerogative; but, when you start doubting the facts
that guys like Bill Heitman are providing then there's no way of convincing you.

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Posted By: leon

I have only seen the card slabbed on numerous ocassions. However, I have spoken to several 30+ year veterans, whom I greatly respect, and are not commenting, that guarantee the card is trimmed. Pictures to prove it, though I have never seen them. With that being said I am not sure what it means to that card? I know the current owner is proud of it and does a lot for the hobby...regards

edited for grammar...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEON

I agree 100 % with your last sentence. I will never forget the excitement
in the Auction filled room at Sotheby's when Gretzy's guy won this Wagner
that day back in the early '90s in NY.

It was a tremendous boost for the hobby. It reminded me when I was a kid
collecting Stamps and the one-of-a-kind British Guiana stamp was bought
for a similar $$ amount....$500,000.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The current owner has every right to love it and be proud of it but there is the issue of disclosure that has never satisfactorily been addressed.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Rick, I agree with Ted. You say that "old timers" have an axe to grind with grading companies and that they are unbiased about the situation. From reading your posts, you seem to have an axe to grind with "old timers" and come across as far from unbiased yourself.

If the truth of this card ever comes out, it will be a major PR nightmare for PSA, but I doubt they will suffer too much form it. They can just claim that it was an honest mistake due to their overzealousness to get this card into one of their slabs.

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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Posted By: William Heitman

Jay, my friend, "overzealousness" is both accurate and misleading. Thanks largely to the grading services, "accurate" has become a term lost to this hobby. If that's having an axe to grind, then I will gladly grind it.

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Posted By: Rick

Without the old timers there simply woulnt be a hobby as we know it today ...they were the pioneers and deserve much credit, Probably more than they are given.

But with the internet things have changed...some have adapted and some have not.

The speed at which information flows today its incredible...back in the day even if you went to all the shows and traded with as many people as you could ...it would still take you years to see all the cards that are now listed on ebay in a month.

With sites like this one as well as more specialized sites you get to see and read about almost any card you wish.

caramel cards, tabacco cards, cuban issues, pre war...you name it, there is a website devoted to it.

some old timers have become progressive and embraced the grading services, ebay and the new grading standars of the hobby...some have not, its easy to pick apart the grading services and speak of their greed and errors. too easy.

its hard to change...its hard to see your expertise being matched by someone who has been in the hobby only a few years, its hard to see a tight little group of collectors be diluted with tons of new collectors, speculators and investors.

3rd party grading has as many evils as it has goods...

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Posted By: Michael Campbell

I'm just curious as to the exact definition of an old timer?

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Posted By: JudgeDred2 (Fred)

If you were the stop watch in the clockers hands when Jesse Owens ran in world record time - you're an old timer....

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For baseball players, my working definition of 'old timer' is if you are invited to play in an old timers game or casual game of retired players, you're an old timer.

For hobbyists, if you are asked to tell about the way the hobby used to be, you're an old timer.

As with children graduates from Yale and female figure skaters, someone like Zach will probably be an old timer at age 25.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Are you an old timer? Were you on Wirt Gammon's Christmas card list? Were you on Jefferson Burdick's Christmas card list? Do you fondly remember the time before there were card shows? Did you receive the "Monthly Card Collector's Bulletin" when it was published by Burdick, or, even later by Bray? Did you call Buck Barker "Buck"? Did you buy from Larry Fritsch while he was still in college? Ever had cards lost you mailed to him? And not heard about it for more than a year? Did you buy the First Edition of the American Card Catalog? Do you still have it? Did you buy penny packs of cards? Or even nickel packs? Do you still have those cards? Can you spot a trimmed T206 Wagner, even if it's been graded by one of these newfangled grading services? Did you ever discuss with Frank Nagy his "about mint" grade?

I can think of a lot more. The finals one is--do you even know what I'm talking about?

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"Thanks largely to the grading services, "accurate" has become a term lost to this hobby."

With all due respect, I think this is an unbelievably unfair statement.

I will be the first to admit that some grading services could be better-versed in obscure issues, and there are occasional examples of what can be perceived as a lapse in ethics (or at least in quality control).

However, in my opinion, the true lack of accuracy in this hobby happened BEFORE third party grading. Doesn't anybody remember the unbelievable disparities between cards that were described as "MINT", or "NEAR MINT"? Doesn't anybody recall buying cards described as "mint" and getting a horribly off-centered card, or a card with rounded corners? I can't even count how many times I was told "for a 50-year-old card, that's in mint condition."

Grading companies, in my opinion, have been OUTSTANDING for the hobby, because they introduce an element of accountability and accuracy that was never there before. When I buy a raw card that's described as near mint, I never really know what I'm going to get. When it's described as PSA 7, or SGC 84, I have a reasonable idea of what to expect, and glaring inconsistencies are the exception, not the rule.

This doesn't even take into account the issue of authentication. I can identify an authentic 1938 Goudey from two yards away, but I wouldn't know how to spot a fake 1952 Mantle. What if I want to buy one for my Hall of Fame collection? You can bet I'll be buying it in a slab.

I've been reading this thread intently each day now. I find the commentary on the Wagner to be incredibly interesting, shedding the brightest light I've seen yet on an issue that we've all speculated about. The first-hand knowledge of that card presented in this thread is an incredible read. By contrast, the comments on the grading industry read more like sour grapes from someone with an axe to grind.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've been in the hobby 23 years myself and feel like an old-timer, and I too remember a simpler and more enjoyable time. But it's a fact that the world changes, and the hobby of collecting baseball cards has changed in step with everything else. I may have preferred it twenty years ago, but I fully understand that it will never be like that again. And I am also resigned to the fact that the Beatles will never reunite for a concert. That is what change is all about.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will admit I am an "Old Timer" and I am proud of it. And, furthermore
I do have an "axe to grind" regarding card grading.

(1) This happened to me in Philly. I submitted a really crisp 1949 Stan
Musial card to PSA. They rejected it for "evidence of trim". After a nasty
exchange of words with them, I walked it over to SGC. SGC graded it with
a whopping "88" grade. You figure it, I can't....it's an arbitrary process.

(2) I don't think even a trained eye can tell the difference between a card
graded with an 8, 9, or even a 10. Yet, the difference in price is an order
of magnitude greater for each additional grade. For example....a given card
grade 8 is $1000....grade 9 = $10,000....grade 10 = $100,000. I would never
be crazy enough to pay these prices for what is so incrementally insignifi-
cant a difference
Our hobby has been taken over by the old Coin Grading "artists"; and, we all
know what they did to that hobby. But, mind you it did not occur overnite.