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#1
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Ben
Well normally, I choose to keep my nose out of threads having to do with grading controversies and ebay fraud, but I'm afraid that a blatant case of it hit home for me very recently. Please note that I do not intend for this post to be an attack on anyone, but it sure seems like someone has some explaining to do. |
#2
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Aaron
The card looks to have been professionally restored and then slabbed. This is a common practice among some dealers and auction houses. The restoration is so well done (there are a couple specialists in the area) that the card's alterations are usually never detected even by reputable grading services (wink, wink). |
#3
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Chris B.
GAI needs to explain why a card that is short and clearly had a hole repaired is sitting in one of their holders, plain and simple. |
#4
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
Between this and the doctored Cobb, I'd be VERY hesitant to buy anything from BOTN ever, unless Greg comes up with an exceptionally compelling explanation to why this kind of stuff keeps happening... |
#5
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Aaron
See above. I already explained it. Those in a position to explain better than me are going to avoid this thread like the plague. Card restoration and its undocumented prevailing existence in the vintage card hobby is a taboo subject. |
#6
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Chris B.
No offense Aaron, but I think Greg, "mo.productions" and GAI need to explain this. Someone spent $511 on a card that is not what it is represented to be. |
#7
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Grading hits home
Posted By: warshawlaw
Have you turned the matter over to the authorities yet? Any idea who the seller is or where he is located? Did you email the winning bidder with the information? |
#8
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bill Cornell
I don't see "restoration" done on this card, certainly not like what happened to the E95 Cobb. An obvious pinhole has been made only slightly less obvious: this could be done with your finger by pushing the paper back in place if it still remained on the back. I've done it myself more than once. None of the other identifying marks on the cards have been removed. |
#9
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Chris B.
thats a pretty skillful looking thumb-push repair, and there has been a wrinkle near Johnson's raised foot that is no longer there. |
#10
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Marc S.
will see what happens... |
#11
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bill Cornell
My point is that you and I can see it easily and we're looking at a scan of the card through a piece of plastic, while the Cobb had a tear expertly removed. Apples and oranges on the restoration scale. |
#12
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Scott Forrest
...since I don't want to stir up the hornet's nest again, but I don't think Greg would have issue with my comments. |
#13
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
as i didn't catch it wasn't greg (or so it seems) that was selling this on ebay - it could just be coincidence that it was sold to him and then it appears on ebay being sold by someone else after apparent restoration, but it is more than a bit suspicious |
#14
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
All that was done was a drop of water was added to the pinhole and the paper pushed back down. The hole is still evident as are the other surface issues. The wrinkle on the side was there too in grading. No paper or paint was added to the card. |
#15
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Dennis W.
What is generally accepted as ethical treatment of cards? I know that myself and others here commonly remove glue/scrapbook residue from the backs of cards by soaking. A by-product of soaking is that it also cleans the card. Is that ethical? (I know - a huge can of worms) Another factor could be the financial status of GAI. Are they in a financial position to turn away a potential regular customer/dealer by rejecting a vintage card knowing that that same dealer would likely turn to a different grader? With market share at a premium and GAI generally accepted as the #3 company behind PSA and SGC would they relax their standards to enhance their bottom-line? |
#16
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Ben
Greg, I appreciate your response. Quite honestly, I was shocked to see that card in a slab when I first came across the auction, and still believe it does not belong in one. But I do think this says more about questionable grading standards over at GAI than it does about any of your actions. The right edge seemed clearly trimmed to me since the first time I saw it, possibly the bottom edge too. I was very, very surprised when I read in your post that several graders at GAI thought the card was good. But hey - I could be wrong. |
#17
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
i guess it would stand to reason that if this card had been professionally restored, they could have done a lot more to take out other imperfections still evident. the doctored cobb for example looks like it had significant work to it, and if as greg says a drop of water was added and it pushed down (although i still don't know what happened to the crease under his foot - maybe it just doesn't show up on the slabbed scan) then maybe that's not so bad - nothing was really being added to the card and gai thought it worthy to grade - maybe (speaking for myself) i overreacted on this one. |
#18
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Grading hits home
Posted By: barrysloate
Now that the collecting public is becoming aware that cards are being altered and subsequently undetected when sent to grading services, isn't it time to question why so much trust is placed in graded cards? Everyone sends cards in to be graded because they assume it means a seemless transaction will ensue, but now it is clear that even third party grading can no longer be considered the last word. What is the answer to this? Does every card in existence still need to be sent to a professional service? Will the hobby ever shift back to a time when experienced and ethical dealers can grade their own cards and collectors will readily accept them? To my knowledge, a substantial percentage of high end graded cards have had creases ironed out or other work done to them, and I'm talking about cards that eventually sold for five and even six figures. What do collectors feel now that their treasured collectibles, even those slabbed, may not be what they are supposed to be? This is a giant can of worms, the repercussions which we have not yet fully absorbed. |
#19
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Max Weder
If I remember looking at comic grading, don't the comic grading companies offer slabbed comic in restored grades? As a person who has had many dust jackets restored for my own personal collection, there are many situations in which I would prefer to have a card or other ephemera restored for my own sense of personal aesthetics. |
#20
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Barry, you are an icon in the hobby but DAH! When you have people grading pre-war cards that do not have a clue of what they are looking at, then this will happen. Has any of the Old Timers been approached to be hired by these grading companies???? Have you Barry, or Jerry Smolin or a John Ramierez or Lew Lipset or a Rob Lifson or anyone who has been in this hobby for 30 years and knows what they are looking at??? NO! College kids and young punks who have never seen a D304 or a Texas Tommy (who did he play for) are the ones grading your rare pre-war cards. Now these people are fine for the shiny **** but a knowledgable card person should be grading the pre-war stuff. I submitted a Honey boy that was Near Mint but since they were made on poor quality paper and the paper showed imperfections I received a 4. FUNNY! Grading is a JOKE! Grading is a CANCER! Educate yourself with what you are buying and don't rely on some punk that couldn't even recognize the issue if you didn't identify it on your submittal form. ok, I feel better now. Dan. |
#21
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Grading hits home
Posted By: barrysloate
I agree with you Dan and I know that many of the graders are young kids who are being taught how to grade on the fly. But my question is: Why is the hobby a total slave to what these graders say? You know that the hobby today forces everyone to send their cards in. Could you imagine trying to get top dollar on NR MT/MT cards without getting them graded? You would get less than fifty cents on the dollar for them. And no, no one has ever approached me to grade cards, but you know what, I make mistakes too. I miss things such as imperceptible trims or tiny creases, I think we all do. But the grading services make the same mistakes too. The only difference is they don't own the cards and are not selling them, so the theory is they don't have the same bias that a seller might have. That is fine, but the opinion of any grader, whether selling cards from inventory or working for PSA or SGC, is just that, an an opinion, nothing more. But if it is my opinion versus their opinion, I will lose every time, and I know that. It may not be right, but there is nothing I can do. I am forced to send all my cards in to be graded, because the system tells me that is the only way I can get full value for them. It is a deeply flawed system, but what can be done? And I appreciate you calling me a hobby icon, but I'm just a guy who's been selling baseball cards for a long time. But thanks for the kind words. |
#22
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
that the changes made to this card are MINIMAL? And not worthy of comment? And that GAI should have graded it a 3? |
#23
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Well Barry, you are an icon to dad and I. Anyway, you are absolutely correct! Though I think the new INVESTORS not necessarily collectors, have supported this pathetic change. People (and I will be nice here) are buying the grade or number on the slab instead of the card, that is the problem. I watched Bill Huggins pull a 1963 topps common out of his $4 binder and have it slabbed at the PSA booth in Chantilly some years back. It came back a 9 and he sold it at his table for $400. Now I don't care what that card slabbed at, a 1963 common is worth $4 no matter what. I just hope that one day, the bottom drops out of this pathetic course and the morons carrying around the 9's and 10's they paid a thousand times more than they are worth, become only what the card is worth again. |
#24
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Grading hits home
Posted By: leon
First of all I don't really want to get into a 189 post-thread about who did what. The top card, not in the holder, is larger than the bottom one, scanwise. That will make it show some imperfections a little better. To me the bottom one is a little darker than the top one which makes it look a little better too. Having said those things it looks like the pinhole was dealt with very nicely. If nothing was added so be it. It looks "cleaner" in the holder too. There are a couple of spots that don't look as bad on the card in the holder as opposed to the one without. Who knows? |
#25
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Grading hits home
Posted By: 823dek
I didn't bid on this card, cause it looked short at the bottom . As a collector , I must like the look of the overall card. The borders are to me the most important and the size just didnt look good to me. The corners looked fine and the "BIG POOP" stain on the card is tolerable. The fact that paper was pushed down and water to help it , may not be an issue, but if the card is trimmed and graded...ugh ! |
#26
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Dan well put! I agree with you completely. How long have you been collecting? Dan. |
#27
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Dennis W.
15 or so years ago the hobby changed permanantly and for the worse. The market was flooded with worthless cardboard and the dealers changed. They changed from friendly helpful guys/gals that enjoyed trading and chatting with their customers to guys/gals that became desperate for profitibility and a way to stay in business. Some are still as friendly as ever but are they in business for fun or for a living? When someone's living is in jeopardy some people make bad/dishonest decisions. That's the nature of business. Then the mighty Internet came into being. People were now buying cards from faceless dealers. The same dealers that they had already lost faith in. The need for a a third party "unbiased" evaluater became apparant. The ability to ultrasonically seal a card between 2 slabs of plastic evidently was the primary prerequisite for that need. |
#28
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Grading hits home
Posted By: 823dek
Dan.McKee- Hello again ! Collecting since 68 and prewar since 87, wow do the years go by and the wants... SURE DO CHANGE !!! |
#29
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Let's not screw that up?? If you are referring to me than all I can say is that I and only I am responsible for my words. I am complete, regular issue sets from 1920 to 1990. I have about 6 slabbed cards, one is my 1952 topps Mantle that was in 2 pieces and I elmers glued it together. It is now professionally slabbed. Let me repeat myself, GRADING IS A CANCER!!! |
#30
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Cool dan! enjoyed the transaction. Unfortunately, most of the good stuff I sell is consigned, I am a hoarder!! Dan |
#31
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Dennis W.
My comment "let's not screw that up" was not directed at anyone just merely a maybe poorly worded suggestion that as long as this board maintains it's credibility it carries a significant amount of clout in pre-war collecting and trends - especially where grading companies are concerned. Sorry for any misunderstanding. |
#32
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Mark M.
I buy most of my vintage cards on ebay and have been buying pre-war cards for just a few years. Aside from posting a link on this forum or looking to see if a card says "Dover," I do not know how to tell an original from a reprint for most types of issues. I once bought an n162 Anson that turned out to be fake - but since it was the first n162 I had seen, I had no idea what type of font, paper, etc. an original would have. So I can either (i) buy only graded cards or (ii) buy ungraded cards and be unsure whether they are real or not. And let me tell you, it's a rather uneasy feeling to pay $1000+ to get a card that may or may not be real. And there are many new collectors/investors of people like me. Hence, the demand and need to grading companies. |
#33
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Hey no problem Dennis, I am just venting. Mark, there are several fake cards that are graded. Though your method may be percentage wise better, it is far from fool proof. I have seen several fake fro-joy cards that are slabbed. How about the poor bastard buying those junkers??? |
#34
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Dennis W.
Dan, let me repeat myself - Dealers and the Internet established the need for third-party evaluators. They didn't elbow their way in they filled a need. I never said I was in favor of them but like it or not they're here to stay. |
#35
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
They may be here to stay but a knowledgable collector has a choice not to use them. Is there any market for the hundreds of broken slabs I have?? You can take those pop reports and wipe your rump with them. They are all wet! |
#36
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Speaking of fakes being graded, isn't there some shiny McGwire card that has a graded population report higher than what was actually printed?? What a bunch of idiots! |
#37
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Leon, how long have you been collecting? I rest my case. Newly entered collectors/investors will go the slabbed route because that is the way it is now. I would guess, and could be wrong, but if you polled the people who have been collecting 30 years plus, I would say most are not impressed with the slab craze. Dan. |
#38
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Lee Behrens
How does a card with a hole even get a grade of 2? If the rest of the card is MInt I still don't think it can receive a grade a Good. The grade itself is a joke. |
#39
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Julie
at least one guy writes and offers to buy it. None of them are slabbed. Is slabbed. |
#40
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Grading hits home
Posted By: hankron
Dan, you may have been thinking about the 1995-6 Finest Hockey Gold Refractor Jaromir Jagr. Topps advertised that they produced fewer than 150 of the cards. The problem being that a Jagr fan accumulated 159 of them! |
#41
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gary B.
"Newly entered collectors/investors will go the slabbed route because that is the way it is now." |
#42
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Grading hits home
Posted By: barrysloate
I think someone on this thread touched on an important point when he said he bought his first N162 card, an Anson, and it turned out to be a fake. He felt at a loss because it was the first N162 he had ever seen. I think there is an important service that would be incredibly useful- one that both authenticates cards and looks closely at real cards for tampering. That would benefit and protect evryone. But grading is a completely different issue. A card is either 100% real or 100% fake, so authenticating a card could conceivably be an exact science and save collectors much grief. But a grade is always an opinion, and not necessarily the right one. I think an authentication service is badly needed, a grading service less so. I think we can all learn to grade cards, and the veteran collectors and dealers know about as much as anyone. Yes, unscrupulous dealers always tend to overgrade, but this will catch up with them and in time they will either improve their skills or their business will suffer. |
#43
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
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#44
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Scott Forrest
But it seems like a lot of "new collectors" want to jump right into the high-dollar items, and that's just not wise. I spent a full year buying and selling inexpensive vintage cards before I ever spent more than $200 on any single item. I held, smelled, and cataloged every card I purchased, comparing characteristics of each issue, comparing similarities in printing, lithography, cuts, etc., between issues, reading hobby publications and card boards, and exchanging calls and emails with other collectors. So when I hear about someone like the Anson purchaser you describe, well...his "sink or swim" technique obviously didn't work. |
#45
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Grading hits home
Posted By: barrysloate
Scott, what you did and what everyone should do is teach themselves the business, and there is nothing wrong with a beginner buying a few inexpensive cards and if he gets burned, he learns a quick lesson. Just chalk it up to the cost of learning what's what. But too many people do jump in spending too much money before they learn anything, and they are led to believe that if they are buying slabbed cards they have nothing to worry about. Of course, there is yet another problem in that these neophytes are often badly overcharged and lose out anyway, but that touches on a completely different issue. I've always said that graded cards solve some problems but create a set of new ones. People are badly taken advantage of under the guise of: "if you buy a slabbed card, you are buying insurance against fraud." But what they don't get is insurance against price gouging. What it boils down to is Scott's original point- teach yourself the business, learn to make your own decisions. That's how I started and everything I know I learned myself, sometimes the hard way. When new investors jump into the hobby and start buying up all these overpriced slabbed cards, I think they are missing out on the learning experience. |
#46
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Anonymous
"So when I hear about someone like the Anson purchaser you describe, well...his "sink or swim" technique obviously didn't work." |
#47
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Darren J. Duet MD
Grading is a virus and collector's are the host. Look to its evolution and you'll see it kill it self by destroying its host(in the sense that we'll find a cure -- old school collecting). I know many you are prominent dealers and gurus of the HOBBY and business and I have grown to respect many of you. I have been active in this hobby since the age of 5 and I am 34 now. There are many of us out there that you guys know little about yet we know a great deal about cards and the card business. I long for the time when you actually held and examined a raw card and made your own decision on condition and value. |
#48
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
It is my understanding that if a new collector follows this board's tips, he will come out with a genuine card 99% of the time. |
#49
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Grading hits home
Posted By: Bryan
I will be the first one to admit that I LIKE graded cards. I know, I know the hate mails can start now. But let me say that I also collect cards because I love them and not for investment even though I have asked the dreaded "investment" question in past threads. Most of the cards that I own are graded, and most of them are graded a 1. I buy graded cards for a couple of reasons. |
#50
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Grading hits home
Posted By: dan mckee
Bryan, you shouldn't get any hate emails. You have very valid points and it is your right to prefer graded cards. I must agree with you, an SGC card has by far the best looking presentation. Leon has made valid points to me on the phone, with the internet and the large hike in value, a 3rd party service can help weed out the doctored cards. I must agree with that in general, though they won't always be perfect, they have probably seen just about every type of alteration that you can imagine. I like Barry's idea of no number assigned. Dan. |
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