Related to the uncut sheet question

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Posted By: kevin 

I want to thank Hankron for his response to my questions about uncut sheets in the earlier thread, it was, by far, the most intelligent answer that I have received.

My next question though is along the same lines. Since it is well know by anybody who has been in this hobby at least 20 years that all of these high grade 8's, 9's and 10s, didn't exist 15 or 20 years ago, how many of these high grade cards do you think have been cut from sheets or altered in some way (bleached, pressed, trimmed)? 20%? 50%? 70%? More?

Of course I am talking about pre-1950 era cards.

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Posted By: Marc S.

With some issues -- attempts at restoration are quite obvious. Bleaching of 1948 Leaf cards seems to be a very obvious example.

I think that some other issues often have certain idiosyncracies that lend themselves to certain types of restoration. For example -- I have seen numerous 1915 high-grade Cracker Jack cards that were soaked after having been in an album for perhaps 80-85 years...

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Posted By: MW

<< I have seen numerous 1915 high-grade Cracker Jack cards that were soaked after having been in an album for perhaps 80-85 years... >>

Where did you see all of them and how did you know they were "soaked"?

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Posted By: Jeff O

"Since it is well know by anybody who has been in this hobby at least 20 years that all of these high grade 8's, 9's and 10s, didn't exist 15 or 20 years ago"

Let's assume we're not talking about PRO graded cards, or any of the other "fringe" grading companies for a minute. I think that statement is an overly broad generalization - great condition cards have been around. The big difference is that they used to stay in private collections, but now with the effect that grading has had on the market a lot of these hidden gems are making it into the marketplace. I'd sell too if I had stuff of this quality and could sell it for the stupid prices that 9's and 10's get... and replace those cards with lower grade, but still visually appealing examples and have plenty of cash left over.

I'm not naive enough to think that there isn't as much or more trimming going on now than there ever was, but trust me - there have always been plenty of nice cards in the hobby.

Jeff

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Posted By: Todd

<"Since it is well know by anybody who has been in this hobby at least 20 years that all of these high grade 8's, 9's and 10s, didn't exist 15 or 20 years ago">
Sorry, I find that comment to be a load of crap.

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Posted By: kevin

Todd, I don't know how long you have been collecting, but if you believe it is a load of crap, you have not been in this hobby long enough.

10-15 years ago you could walk the biggest shows in the country looking for the best of the best and all of these high grade cards around now were not available, at any price.

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Posted By: Todd

<Todd, I don't know how long you have been collecting, but if you believe it is a load of crap, you have not been in this hobby long enough>
I started collecting in 1966 ,although admittedly, I was still in short pants then. I have never stopped. Is that long enough?

Odd you should mention 10-15 years ago. If I recall correctly, it was in 1987 that baseball card values first went way out of whack from any so-called price guides (I remeber that Kaline rookie I'd coveted lmore than doubled in price guide value alone in the span of about 5 motnhs). Since then, depending on the issue but still as a general statement, prime condition vintage cards have been rather ridiculous in the prices they fetch. I have little doubt that old-time collectors, particularly those with connections, have held and then sold off many of these gems, and, for a variety of reasons, that this continues. It makes good economic sense for people in a number of different situations.
To suggest that "all" high grade specimens of vintage cards are trimmed, fake, or whatever similar point you were driving at is, in my opinion, a load of crap.

Todd

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Posted By: TBob

To suggest that "all" high grade specimens of vintage cards are trimmed, fake, or whatever similar point you were driving at is, in my opinion, a load of crap.>

Todd, I agree with you that this above statement is untrue. But I also believe that there are a lot of cards in 8 and 9 holders which have been altered by trimming, soaking and stretching and cutting, etc.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I am not a fan of broad general statements either but I don't think Kevin is that far out of line. Instead of "all" I would use the word "most". I would say that probably 70% of the pre-war 8's or above didn't exist 15-20 years ago. That is only 7 out of 10, which I think is probably a reasonable amount.

The high grade cards didn't suddenly come out of old collections when prices took off in the late 1980s, they were "made" when prices took off in the late 1980s.


Scott

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Posted By: Todd

I didn't mean to go off on Kevin, as I think he makes some good points in his other thread on cut cards. I just hate broad, conclusory statements. I acknowledge the existence of altered high grade cards, even to the point where I think it's not uncommon--I just don't believe its as rampant as others assert.

For my edification, and understanding that scans don't tell all and/or can themselves be doctored, please give me opinions on which PSA 8 cards from pre-1940 presently up on Ebay are altered. My search showed none up for pre-1930, but about a dozen or so from 1930-1939. Which of these cards are doctored:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2770738162&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2770741576&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2770743369&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2770741606&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2771084371&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2771084818&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2771085161&category=31721

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2772264368&category=31721

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Posted By: Kevin

I would not want give my opinion based only on a scan. Even if you were holding the card in your hand, it might be hard to tell. Once the card is in the holder you can't feel it to see if it is thin, or smell it to see if any chemicals have been used.

There are people out there who are really good at turning a 6 or 7 into an 8. 1933 Goudey cards in EX condition have never been rare, but most 1933 Goudey cards graded NM-MT or better condition were not around 20 years ago.

How many people on this board, who have been around at least 15 years ago, bought the best condition pre-war cards that they could fine, only to have them eventually graded and they turned out to be 6's?

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Posted By: jay behrens

As someone else pointed out, a lot of the high grade vintage stuff has been stashed away in long hobbiest collections. When they change hands, they tend to change hands among that group. I've seen hoardes of cards out there would boggle the mind and you'd say no way. But they do exist.

This is not to say that a lot of high grade cards are not doctored. In the late 80s, there was a paper restorer that was buying up large numbers of 33 Goudeys so that he could use the paper from those cards to rebuild other 33 Goudeys making it much harder to detect the work.

Jay