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#1
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ben
It's pretty much a consensus that these three pitchers were the greatest of their era, and likely, the greatest of all-time. My question to you is, in general, who the favorite amongst vintage collectors and why? |
#2
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Brian H
I'm not sure what your definition of vintage is but I think it would be fair to say that Pete Alexander, who began his career as Matty was winding down his and Johnson was in his prime, was at least Matty's equal. |
#3
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: David
I'm not sure what the question was meant to be: best or most popular? |
#4
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ben
I guess my question can be rephrased as: |
#5
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Julie Vognar
... |
#6
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: jeff s
I guess Johnson is most popular, but it's really hard to base that judgment on price because of drastically different levels of availability. Matty was in SO many sets. If you want a Matty card, you have dozens of readily available (by vintage standards) choices, while with Johnson, the only early tobacco/caramel cards are T206 & T204. Young appears more frequently, but still not much compared to Matty. |
#7
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ben
I'm curious as to what Dan's contribution to this discussion will be |
#8
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: MW
If it were game seven of the World Series and I had to pick one of the three to start, who would I take? That's easy -- Mathewson. |
#9
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: brian parker
Although Mathewson may have been in more 1910 era sets, due to his career beginning earlier, Johnson is probably in just as many sets as Matty when you include all the strip cards, the various Sporting News issues, and 1920's caramel cards, etc. I believe that Mathewson is in more issues that the majority of collectors deem desirable, so that may tilt the popularity needle in his direction. I know I would rather have a E-Card of Matty over a strip card of Johnson any day. The frequency that the subject matter of this board revolves around 1910 era cards is as good an indicator as any that this incredible era of cards hold a great sway over our collective collector minds. And Matty is king or at least the prince in many of these loved sets. |
#10
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: David
I tempor my response by saying that I was thinking of memorabilia in general, not sepcifically cards-- though, I suspect the trends for the two are similar. |
#11
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: David
As photos are my specialty, I note that vintage/original Cy Young and Walter Johnson photographs are desirable and popular-- but Mathewson is in a class by himself. For a reason other than his early death, his original photos are very hard to find and this is reflected in the substantially higher prices. Also, Cy and Walter were hardly photogenic. |
#12
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
I agree with MW-among these three I would pick Mathewson for game seven of a World Series. But I strongly disagree with the three of them ranking as the greatest pitchers in baseball. Depending on the criteria you use the rankings will vary but all three pitched in a era that was conducive to great pitching. For the same reason Bob Gibson's 1.12 e.r.a while certainly remarkable is less remarkable than Pedro's 1.74 e.r.a in 2000 their statistics are skewed (relative to other prominent pitchers) by time and place. |
#13
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: runscott
Johnson had power and longevity that was rare in his time. Joe Wood could throw about as fast, but had a very brief career. Matty had finesse and control, which I would definitely want in Game 7 of the WS. It's a tough call - I'll take both! Forget Cy Young. |
#14
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: TBob
How can you go with Matty to pitch Game 7 of the series, MW? Great, great pitcher but his record in WS final games is not great. Granted he had some horrible bad luck but for one game, during that era, I'd go with Walter Johnson or the overlooked Mordecai Centennial Peter "3 Finger" Brown who was a hell of a clutch pitcher. Just ask Matty... |
#15
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ryan Christoff
This thread is interesting. I've always thought Matty was the fan favorite in the vintage world, but I prefer Johnson. Here's my personal top 5 all-time pitchers, without getting into qualifiers like "in their prime" or "if they played today", etc. |
#16
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ben
Career wins |
#17
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: runscott
in that case, the following pitchers each had periods of three or more years when they were virtually untouchable (Guidry might have been shorter). |
#18
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: TBob
For that one golden season, how about Smokey Joe Wood? Or Big Ed Walsh during his 40 win season? |
#19
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: runscott
but the disadvantage to being a "vintage" fan is that we never got to see these guys play! I've seen all the others on my list. From what I've read and heard, I would add Smokey Joe Wood and Denny McClain. When Wood was in his prime, he and Walter Johnson were considered the cream of the crop. |
#20
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
I have always loved this debate. It is all based on criteria. Certainly, if you are talking objectively the best pitchers over a short period are Pedro Martinez and Sandy Koufax (5-6 year range). |
#21
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
BTW- |
#22
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Ryan Christoff
The best single season pitching performances that I can remember seeing in my lifetime are: |
#23
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: jay behrens
how about Steve Rogers and Steve carlton's annual battle for the Cy Young award over a 3 or 4 year period form the late 70s to early 80s. |
#24
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Dan Mathewson
...I guess it's time for my two cents. |
#25
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: TBob
Jack Morris' 10 inning shutout in Game 7 of the 1991 WS has to be mentioned. Don't forget journeyman Don Larsen catching lightning in a bottle and pitching the ONLY perfect game in WS history. |
#26
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Dan Mathewson
...when relying on stats, and comparing Matty and Johnson to later day players. |
#27
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: runscott
The pitchers of their day were more likely to "save themselves", knowing they had to go nine. So if their team was ahead by several runs, they relaxed, not all caught up in stats like era (some of the current glamour stats weren't even calculated back then). |
#28
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Jay Miller
In his prime I think the greatest pitcher ever was Sandy Koufax. When you consider the pain he was playing with at the end of career it is all the more remarkable. I'll take the 1965 Koufax, with all his physical ailments, against anyone and feel comfortable doing it. |
#29
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: warshawlaw
The man had a WS career ERA of less than 1.00. He made the Yankees look stupid in the 1963 series. He won game 7 in 1965 on three days' rest with an arthritic elbow. And he did it in the modern era after baseball was integrated and after Ruth established the home run as a weapon. If my life was hanging on the result of the game, I'd take Koufax. |
#30
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: runscott
so I'll take the 1968 version of Bob Gibson. For my second starter, I will controversially take 1986 Mike Scott during the year he "re-introduced" the split-finger - virtually untouchable. Third starter would be 1978 Ron Guidry. |
#31
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
Obviously it is difficult to compare pitchers from different eras. Statistics can be manipulated to prove many things. Yes, they had difficulty knowing they would have to pitch nine innings, yes they were not concerned with their stats. However, it was very rare they could get beat on one bad pitch. It often took three hits to score a run. The strike zone was bigger, etc., etc. Pedro is more dominant in his era than anbody in history (at least by the numbers) and Koufax IMO would rank #2. But that is only one small criteria. Anybody could come up with a valid criteria and probably prove that any one of 15 to 20 pitchers is the best of all-time. |
#32
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: TBob
I'd take the Boston Red Sox pitcher Babe Ruth who set a World Series record for consecutive scoreless innings which wasn't broken for almost 50 years. Besides he could hit 4 times for my team. |
#33
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: jeff s
Also, I'd probably go with a 4 man rotation. |
#34
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: fkw
Little Pedro pitching in this HR hitters era....... is my best ever! |
#35
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: petecld
"Forget Cy Young." |
#36
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Dan MAthewson
...where are you finding the winking smiley? is there a smiley page available again? I just use the boring old end bracket and colon... |
#37
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Albie O'Hanian
Frank, |
#38
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: fkw
Cy Young was a great pitcher too, dont get me wrong, I just have a little problem putting him in the "best ever", with him losing 15 or more game in 13 of his 19 full seasons (I know he pitched many more games per year than modern pitchers). I was mainly going with domination in the prime of their careers (5-10 years span) when I chose my list. I used to have trouble with Ryan as one of the best ever, until you look at what he did at the end of his career (after learning to toss a good curve). Im sure there are others that can be listed....like Carlton, Spahn, and even BigEd Walsh with his "extremely hard to believe" 1910 season... 1.27 ERA ... giving up just 242 hits in 370 innings (well under 6 hits per 9 innings)..... he ended up losing 20 games while winning only 18?? WOW talk about dead ball era/hitless wonders!!) Frank |
#39
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Cy
I was listening to my "Glory of Their Times" CD set today riding to and from my Thanksgiving dinner. (If you are a vintage collector and do not have this 4-CD set, buy it immediately. Ithink it's around $30 from amazon.com. Whether you have the book or not, this is the actual interviews of the players in the book and it is fantastically done. It will be a terrific Christmas gift to yourself.) |
#40
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The big three: Mathewson, Johnson, Young
Posted By: Julie Vognar
(an art book), there is a beautiful, sad abstract called "On Never Having seen Koufax Pitch." which is the way I feel. But getting to see Pedro makes up for it some.. |
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