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#1
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
Time bring up a hottly contested subject, the 'authentic' grade. |
#2
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Scott M
Well, I don't know anything about comics and maybe restoration is considered normal. But I personally don't understand some of the already existing categories for graded cards. IE, NM7 (MC) which presumably means that the card WOULD be near mint except for the tiny detail that someone wrote on it. In my own humble opinion that detail makes the card Good. I think a large part of the problem is that people know believe that what a card is "worth" is dependand on a number on a slab. Heck I've got lots of VG cards that are NM EXCEPT - that doesn't mean that they should grade NM7 (*crease*)! Theres too many of these qualifiers - when at the end of the day the only qualifier should be do you like the card and if you do what are you willing to pay for it. |
#3
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: petecld
Sorry for the long reply |
#4
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: David (hankron on tv)
There was a big debate over this before. I overall agree with Scott's arguments. I'm not for an 'authentic' grade but see its practical purspose for rare circumstances, like a trimmed T206 Honus Wagner, 33 Goudey Lajoie or some brand new but trimmed discovery. |
#5
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Dr.Koos
...Comic Auctions, running simultaneously. Early last year, among a dozen or so other Comic Auctions, I ran two CGC graded NM- 9.2 X-Men 19s simultaneously. The differences were DRASTIC, as the scans indicated. |
#6
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Scott M
Well, I understand your point of view and if the Authentic/Restored/Trimmed were automatically given a grade of 1 then I'd say that it would serve the purpose without too much potential for harm. |
#7
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
There are a few problems with slabbing altered material. |
#8
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
You'll need to ask an expert in the comic field, but I don't think the fact that CGC grades restored comic has caused an increased demand for restored comics. |
#9
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
I don't care what people collect. Like I said, I'm concerned that increasing the demand for altered material will increase the supply. |
#10
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: leon
I started and instigated the whole debate last time. I went as far as having Derek Grady convinced that SGC should give it a try. I told him I would put it on the board for debate and we could see. There were more people against slabbing "without a grade" than there were for "slabbing with grade", as is now done. I think folks will take cards out of slabs anyway so why not give the other "forms" of grading a chance. As I recall I wanted a slabbed card, without a grade, that said "authentic" or "altered", but no grade. There were all kinds of reasoning why it wasn't going to be good and the world would erupt in huge clouds of smoke so Derek blew it off.....I gave it a valient try.....regards all... |
#11
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
altered cards are already being legitimized by the grading services. The only difference right now is that people are unknowingly buying altered cards becuase they are not labeled as such. |
#12
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
Jay & Leon -- |
#13
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: David Vargha
I think altered (but authentic) cards should receive a grade of 1A (Poor/Fair because of alteration). Then the marketplace can determine whether the appeal of the card makes it a "high end" 1A or a "low end" 1A. There is always a market for these cards. I sold a 1949 Bowman Phil Rizzuto card that would have been an 8 oc or straight 6 if some genius hadn't tried to power erase the right border to make it "centered". It was still "worth" $49 to the winning bidder on eBay. Encapsulation doesn't guarantee that the card won't be cracked out and sold to the unsuspecting, but I do believe it lowers the odds of such an occurence. |
#14
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
"expense" not "expensive" |
#15
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: David Vargha
I concur wholeheartedly that legitimate grading (a la PSA and SGC) has helped immensely in driving out the charlatans and back-alley physicians who did their nasty work on cards. I still stand behind a "1A" rating and have faith that the marketplace would not price even the nicest looking "1A" above a ratty looking VG 3. Perhaps I am wrong on this, but I can't seem to remember many cards that were raw and sold with full disclosure of the alteration that sold for above the price of a graded 1 or 2. |
#16
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
If companies do grade altered cards, I too would prefer that they just give them a 1 grade with note of alterations, since by the defanition of grading, any alteration automatically makes the card grade 'poor'. |
#17
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Marc S.
<<If people are encouraged to alter cards, this will increase the amount of altered material that is out there, and some of this will end up being sold as un-altered.>> |
#18
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: petecld
Altered items being sold as un-altered is a problem we have already so why would anyone be against having these items clearly marked a such is beyond me. |
#19
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Dr.Koos
CGC denotes not only that the book IS altered, but WHAT THE ALTERATION WAS, and how severely it was done. The restorative procedures themself is what dictates the book's value. For example: |
#20
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
I really don't see how any self-respecting grading company can knowingly embrace the encapsulation of altered cards. First, there would be an image problem. I certainly wouldn't want to run a grading company known for slabbing altered material. And I don't think it would matter if they also graded unaltered cards -- the perception would exist among some hobbyists that the grading company either condoned or promoted card doctoring by encapsulating altered material. So too, I can see how this might open up the floodgates for legal action. Putting an altered card in a holder would be extremely foolish. Can you even imagine the disclaimer that a grading company would have to possess to undertake such an action? |
#21
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
CGC does detail the alterations done, so you only need to read the label and not have to rely on the scan to see the differences between cards. |
#22
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
<< Also, if grading companies are to comtinue in there current fashion without slabbing every card that comes in, then they should start refunding the fees for cards that reurned unslabbed. >> |
#23
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: leon
I agree with MW that even when a card gets sent back "unslabbed", for whatever reason, the grading company should still be compensated. They still took time to see that it was altered or ungradeable for whatever reason. Just as before in this debate I vehemently disagree with EVERYTHING else he said. I am not going to post anymore about this subject as it got totally worn out last time. regards all |
#24
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
Leon -- |
#25
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
For those who think buying and selling encapsulated altered cards is OK, here's a good trial example: |
#26
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: leon
I said I wasn't going to post about it anymore but you asked a fairly simple question so what the heck. BTW, hope to see/meet you at the Nationals so I can see whom I am debating/jabbing with all of the time I met your brother last year and he is extremely gracious and was very hospitable. I am sure you wil be also........ I think grading an altered card is no worse than grading a fake card ala the Wagner's etc....that SGC already does. I don't know the specific answer, if there is a definitive one, to your question, but I will say that I would potentially buy a card that was graded "altered" SGC 10....if it was the only way I could obtain it....and I would (possibly) be happier with it encapsulated than not...but that is my opinion ....and probably a few others too....I just don't see a reason not to do it...and I don't think the arguments you made earlier are completely on target....as pointed out in the comics arena, by Dr.Koos, an altered/restored version almost ALWAYS goes for less than an unrestored one......anything else on this subject I will save for meeting with you in person.....regards all |
#27
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: warshawlaw
I understand slabbing a card because you can see all of it through a slab, but don't comics have all their content inside the covers? How do you enjoy them if they are encapsulated? Or is the point not to read them? |
#28
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Dr.Koos
lend themselves well, to slabbing. It's a wonderful grading encapsulatory procedure for items that are basically two dimensional (cards, coins, etc.), but items with internal parts that will forever more be "invisible" (unless unslabbed). A Silver age comic is comprised of 11 individual components, 8 interior sheets of pulp-type/newsprint paper, printed on both sides, yielding 4 separate reading pages per sheet (32 in total), 2 staples, and a cover of higher paper quality. After being slabbed, we can only view the outer portion of that cover page (front and back), TWO PAGES of the 36 in total, that are present. Roughly 93% of the total surface area of the sum of the comic's components are now HIDDEN from view! |
#29
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
Why shouldn't you get a refund if you card is sent back ungraded? You are paying to have the card graded and slabbed. If they don't do either, then you rightfully should get your money back becuase they did not provide the service that you paid for. At the moment that a card is determined to be alter, the whole grading/slabbing process stops. There is no time spent grading the card and no expense to them for slabbing the card. So once again, why should you not get a refund if they won't slab it. Slabbing the card is probably the most expensive part of the whole process. |
#30
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
Most people that say slabbing altered cards is a bad idea beucase it will lead to them taking over the hobby remind of the Red Scare people from the 60s who said that if Viet Nam falls then the dominoe effect will take over and the COmmunists will overrun the world. |
#31
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Bruce Moreland
You are paying to have it *authenticated*, graded, and slabbed. |
#32
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
Jay -- |
#33
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
Bruce -- |
#34
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
but since your label of alterations is not in the slab, it too could be altered leading to an even further spread of communism :-p |
#35
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
...and if you must know, my philosophical anguish is furthered perpetuated by my frequent encounters with Spalding baseball guides -- the altered card equivalent of the Marx's Communist Manifesto. |
#36
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: David Vargha
Well, guess what. Viet Nam fell to the communists and the rest of the world did not follow. Not even one single country. |
#37
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
Take THAT Jay! :P |
#38
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: jay behrens
Pol Pot was in power long before Viet Nam fell. |
#39
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: MW
The Communist Khmer Rouge came to power in Cambodia in 1975 as part of the vast upheaval caused largely by the spilling over of the Vietnam War. FACT! :p |
#40
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: Julie Vognar
The only thing about a baseball card is what it looks like, and how it got that way. A comic also has a printed story, and many pictures, a cover and DREADFUL paper. If your comic is falling apart, it makes sense to have the cover re-attached. A tear could be mended in such a way as to make it more legible. ANYWAY< I can undersdtand that restrored comics have value--but not, you'll notice, as high as unrestored ones in the same condition. |
#41
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authentic grade, new look
Posted By: petecld
Not a good example. |
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