If PEDs didnt exist who wd be in HOF

[theshleps]

So if there were no PEDs and Bonds etc achieved what they did without them- who else would be in the HOF?
Obviously Bonds and Clemens- who else
Sosa? McGuire? Manny?? who else

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Would Sosa have been HOF caliber without them? We'll never know.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by theshleps

So if there were no PEDs and Bonds etc achieved what they did without them- who else would be in the HOF?
Obviously Bonds and Clemens- who else
Sosa? McGuire? Manny?? who else

A-Rod and Rafael Palmeiro are no doubters for me.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Would Sosa have been HOF caliber without them? We'll never know.

That is like asking if all the HOFers from the 50s-present would have been as good without all the illegal amphetamines/TUE ADHD meds. PEDs are like aspirin or any other medication, it works way better for some than others. Just look at the Canseco brothers. PEDs really helped one and not so much for the other,

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just look at the Canseco brothers. PEDs really helped one and not so much for the other,

There's obviously something to be said for natural ability. It really helped one and not so much for the other!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

OT, but speaking of the Cansecii, did any other 80's kid pull an Ozzie card out of a pack of 89 UD and feel a sort of contact high because it was almost like getting a Jose?

Thanks for mentioning Ozzie, Ben. Childhood memory unlocked! (I never did pull the Jose out of a foil pack, but once got 2 Griffeys in one pack, so that worked out better, anyway! Canseco was seemingly my nemesis when opening packs from certain sets. Took two boxes of 87T to attain one card. I don't know how many packs of 88 OPC it took to get my lone Canseco. Easily hundreds of packs, and it took until at least 1990 to finally pull one. Wow, it's worth a whole dollar now!)

[BioCRN]

I don't care if Bonds ever gets to the HOF...but he was fun as hell to watch him dominate the batting game to the point a simple AB became something to totally avoid for a pitcher or a life/death battle.

A lot of people were roiding, only Bonds was striking fear in teams and pitchers like Bonds.

Bonds was an easy HOF without the PEDs...he chose the pay and stats.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

I don't care if Bonds ever gets to the HOF...but he was fun as hell to watch him dominate the batting game to the point a simple AB became something to totally avoid for a pitcher or a life/death battle.

A lot of people were roiding, only Bonds was striking fear in teams and pitchers like Bonds.

Bonds was an easy HOF without the PEDs...he chose the pay and stats.

Roids elevated the play of many players, but with Bonds and Clemens, it made them capable of previously impossible things.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is like asking if all the HOFers from the 50s-70s present would have been as good without all the illegal amphetamines/TUE ADHD meds. PEDs are like aspirin or any other medication, it works way better for some than others. Just look at the Canseco brothers. PEDs really helped one and not so much for the other,

Ben do we know which 50s-70s players used used amphetamines- any of the classics? mantle? mays/ aaron? or others in the HOF?
I know alot of former mlb players from the years 2000+ and I know adderal was/is quite common
Just found this on baseball reference
" in the 1970s and users included Willie Stargell, Dave Parker, Jim Bouton and Bill Madlock. Willie Mays is frequently alleged to have used them as well " or this on espn
" A retired Tony Gwynn spoke openly of baseball's amphetamine problem in 2003, estimating for The New York Times that 50 percent of position players were using them routinely, many of them before almost every game. (Gwynn subsequently was blasted by those in uniform at the time for, in their opinion, speaking out of school.)"

[packs]

Andy Pettitte is a HOF pitcher if he wasn't so honest about himself.

If you believe Clemens started juicing when he went to Toronto, he subsequently stole two Cy Youngs from Randy Johnson, who finished second behind him twice.

In another world, Randy Johnson is the only 7 time Cy Young winner and Roger Clemens's career was over at 32. He would be seen in the same way voters see Johan Santana and would likely not be a HOFer in either reality.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

OT, but speaking of the Cansecii,

Point of clarification - in modern Italian, the plural of Canseco is Cansechi.

Ordinarily, you would just change the o to i to pluralize, but because there's a c in there, to make sure the hard c sound sticks around, we get to add the h.

[packs]

I also think Robinson Cano made two mistakes in his career; he should have never left the Yankees and he should have never cheated.

Easily one of the best hitting second baseman of all time but with a very big asterisk.

[G1911]

Gary Sheffield and Kevin Brown

[packs]

Nelson Cruz isn't eligible yet but I would be very surprised if he made it beyond one ballot.

Hard to pass on the guy if he wasn't a known cheater, even with the DH caveat.

[Chris-Counts]

Would Ivan Rodriquez and David Ortiz be Hall of Famers without the juice? I never understood why they got a pass.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Chris-Counts

Would Ivan Rodriquez and David Ortiz be Hall of Famers without the juice? I never understood why they got a pass.

Our gatekeeper overlords get to choose to apply their morals on a selective basis, because they possess the superior understanding to do so.

Plus, it's not that different than high school. They find reasons to excuse the sins of the guys that they like so that they can vote for them, and everyone else can pound sand.

[packs]

Pudge was pretty terrible after he shrunk. From age 33 to 39 he failed to top an OPS+ of 100.

I think his career would mirror Yadier Molina's if he had not been cheating and many see Yadi as borderline, mostly bolstered by him being a dominant defensive catcher, like Pudge.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

well, to be fair most catchers' offense sucks from age 33 - 39.

[GasHouseGang]

Testing for amphetamines didn't begin until the start of the 2006 season, after significant pressure, including the death of Baltimore pitcher Steve Bechler from ephedra (another stimulant) in 2003. The most significant post-ban issue has been the sharp increase in players receiving Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) for prescription stimulant medications, such as Adderall and Ritalin, used to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Critics have pointed to the TUE system as a potential loophole for players to legally obtain performance-enhancing stimulants. The number of TUEs for ADHD jumped dramatically, from 28 in 2006 to 103 in 2007, representing about 7.6% of all MLB players at the time.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

well, to be fair most catchers' offense sucks from age 33 - 39.

True but the drop off for Pudge was pretty drastic. Over that time he had a total WAR of 9.3. Posada's WAR over the same ages was 20.4.

[Misunderestimated]

Well it is a tough counterfactual because a pretty high percentage of everyone in MLB was probably using some sort of PED at some point in the (Selig) PED-era, not just the big names. It stands to reason that the guys closer to the dreaded "replacement level" were more compelled to use than more 'naturally gifted' guys.

Anyway Bonds (for sure) and Clemens (probably) make it absent their ("alleged") use of PEDs. In a PED-free world less career achievement would have been acceptable -- one of the things that the PEDs did for the better players was enable them to keep at it longer.... provided that they also put in the work (like Bonds).
I think that McGwire would have made it -- eventually -- as a sort of Ralph Kiner type... big power peak with high HR/plate appearance.
Sosa is a tougher call. He seems like a 30/30 guy without the "help" who would have put up fewer homers more SBs...His charisma (which is not a PED thing) might have gotten him over the hump in a world where he has 400 HRs -- which would still be a lot.
I feel like Palmeiro would get it too.
Sheffield, IROD, AROD and Manny all get in with lower numbers -- I feel like these guys were so much more gifted than the average player that they would have made too. IROD and AROD were hard-workers and top-notch fielders and dont think the PEDs necessarily helped them as much.

BTW : Jeff Kent wouldn't have gotten to bat with the SF Giants Bonds so he might now have put up the numbers that supported his selection a few days ago (the HRs and the MVP award).

Jim Thome and Frank Thomas who didn't use, would be held in even higher acclaim than they are now. Thomas the most frightening batters I'd ever seen before McGwire and (especially) Bonds took the thing to a whole new level...

Current guys like Judge and Ohtani would look even better than they do now.

[Yoda]

And a long time ago, it was just alcohol.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Yoda

And a long time ago, it was just alcohol.

Maybe? There was a lot of crazy stuff out there before the FDA got involved.

I mean, even Coca Cola had cocaine until ~1900?

[Misunderestimated]

Also I think Pud Galvin would have made the HOF even without using the testicular fluid from animals ..
Maybe he would have had to stop at just 300 Wins and 250 loses... ;-)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...d/70610061007/

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Roids elevated the play of many players, but with Bonds and Clemens, it made them capable of previously impossible things.

It took Bonds and Clemens who, at their peaks, were destined to be in the upper echelon of the Hall, to inner circle Hall of Fame level of statistics. No excuses for them, but people forget how dominant they both were before PED usage.

For Clemens it's assumed he used in and after 1996. He came off his worse statistical season by most measures in 1995, and immediately became a Cy Young candidate again. From 1984-1995 he compiled 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, 182-98 record with a 3.00 ERA and 73 WAR.

For Bonds it's assumed he started in late 1998. Counting just 1986-1997 Bonds put up a 91.8 WAR, 3 MVP's a slew of Gold Gloves, 374 Homers, 417 Stolen bases, 359 Doubles and 1227 Walks.

They were both good enough without the juice.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

The number of TUEs for ADHD jumped dramatically, from 28 in 2006 to 103 in 2007, representing about 7.6% of all MLB players at the time.

I would be interested in how this percentage compares to the obvious and dramatic rise both nationally and globally. It would also be interesting to see these stats both incorporating and excluding the percentage of children taking the drugs, since I recall that the majority of users of such medication are children (or at least they're initially prescribed the drugs while still minors). People with more knowledge on the subject can and will correct me if any part of my last sentence isn't accurate.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Seven

It took Bonds and Clemens who, at their peaks, were destined to be in the upper echelon of the Hall, to inner circle Hall of Fame level of statistics. No excuses for them, but people forget how dominant they both were before PED usage.

For Clemens it's assumed he used in and after 1996. He came off his worse statistical season by most measures in 1995, and immediately became a Cy Young candidate again. From 1984-1995 he compiled 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, 182-98 record with a 3.00 ERA and 73 WAR.

For Bonds it's assumed he started in late 1998. Counting just 1986-1997 Bonds put up a 91.8 WAR, 3 MVP's a slew of Gold Gloves, 374 Homers, 417 Stolen bases, 359 Doubles and 1227 Walks.

They were both good enough without the juice.

Assumed? So everyone in the 90s was using steroids except for Bonds and Clemens? It should be assumed that they were using much earlier. Bonds had an unnatural jump in power from 1990-92 to 93-94. How do you know he wasn't doping then?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Why are people so hung up on when so-and-so was using? We know they were using and it's an easy enough guidepost to tell when they started based on the marked change in stats. For me, though, the timeframe is completely irrelevant. They're crooked and have no place in an ethical HOF if such an institution actually existed. It does not, so who cares? The constant discussion feels like such a waste of breath if you take the position that the juicers should not be inducted.

I'll contribute my own waste of breath to mention that it really irks me that Ortiz was given such an easy ride and free pass due to people liking him. I never cared for him whatsoever, and it was pretty obvious he was doping. I actually like Manny more than Ortiz, and I really dislike Manny, but he made no bones about what a complete and utter clown he was and is. He wasn't hiding behind a supposed nice guy personality.

It may be a small thing to many people, but when they had the 2004 post-WS celebration on field at Fenway, the imbecilic Ortiz felt the need to blast the F word into the microphone as part of his little speech for all the world to hear. Yes, kids hear that word all over the place, and I'm not as much of a vernacular prude as this makes me sound, but have a modicum of tact, Ortiz. He is such a putz. What's weird is that nobody in the crowd seemed to care, nor did I hear anyone mention it in the media afterward. Maybe I was all alone in my annoyance, but that's fine.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by rats60

Assumed? So everyone in the 90s was using steroids except for Bonds and Clemens? It should be assumed that they were using much earlier. Bonds had an unnatural jump in power from 1990-92 to 93-94. How do you know he wasn't doping then?

We don't, I say assumed based off what has been reported by ESPN, testimony from Brian McNamee, and what was wrote in Game of Shadows for Bonds. I don't think there ever will be a definitive answer, unless either one of them truly owns up to it which won't happen.

I'm perfectly fine with both of them being in the Hall. I'm not going to sit here and preach "The Sanctity of the game." Sure in our minds the game of yesteryear is sacred, and it might still be to plenty of kids, but we all know it's far from it.

Professional Baseball has been wrought with Scandal for most of the 20th century, and at this point PED usage doesn't matter. Whether it was injections from quack doctors, taking different animals testosterone, popping amphetamines like candy or taking HGH, a good chunk of the Hall is guilty. And that doesn't even begin to factor the other members who are in there of questionable character due to certain beliefs they had pertaining to players of color/different ethnic background.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Also I think Pud Galvin would have made the HOF even without using the testicular fluid from animals ..
Maybe he would have had to stop at just 300 Wins and 250 loses... ;-)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...d/70610061007/

great article

[steve B]

Originally Posted by theshleps

Ben do we know which 50s-70s players used used amphetamines- any of the classics? mantle? mays/ aaron? or others in the HOF?
I know alot of former mlb players from the years 2000+ and I know adderal was/is quite common
Just found this on baseball reference
" in the 1970s and users included Willie Stargell, Dave Parker, Jim Bouton and Bill Madlock. Willie Mays is frequently alleged to have used them as well " or this on espn
" A retired Tony Gwynn spoke openly of baseball's amphetamine problem in 2003, estimating for The New York Times that 50 percent of position players were using them routinely, many of them before almost every game. (Gwynn subsequently was blasted by those in uniform at the time for, in their opinion, speaking out of school.)"

Adderall is amphetamines and dextroamphetamine salts.

I've taken it for a while, but not currently. One dosage my doctor asked how it was going, and I said it made me feel like a pro ballplayer... something I then had to explain - that dosage came in green capsules.

I also have been to the batting cages both with and without it, and with ritalin.
No improvement was found in any way. I was still a modified/slowpitch batter with moderate power.

Maybe it helped pay attention while a pitcher was doing pitcher things?

NOT a PED.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Why are people so hung up on when so-and-so was using? We know they were using and it's an easy enough guidepost to tell when they started based on the marked change in stats. For me, though, the timeframe is completely irrelevant. They're crooked and have no place in an ethical HOF if such an institution actually existed. It does not, so who cares? The constant discussion feels like such a waste of breath if you take the position that the juicers should not be inducted.

I'll contribute my own waste of breath to mention that it really irks me that Ortiz was given such an easy ride and free pass due to people liking him. I never cared for him whatsoever, and it was pretty obvious he was doping. I actually like Manny more than Ortiz, and I really dislike Manny, but he made no bones about what a complete and utter clown he was and is. He wasn't hiding behind a supposed nice guy personality.

It may be a small thing to many people, but when they had the 2004 post-WS celebration on field at Fenway, the imbecilic Ortiz felt the need to blast the F word into the microphone as part of his little speech for all the world to hear. Yes, kids hear that word all over the place, and I'm not as much of a vernacular prude as this makes me sound, but have a modicum of tact, Ortiz. He is such a putz. What's weird is that nobody in the crowd seemed to care, nor did I hear anyone mention it in the media afterward. Maybe I was all alone in my annoyance, but that's fine.

Never spent much time in Boston have you?

[GasHouseGang]

According to Google's AI:

Amphetamine use was rampant and widely accepted in Major League Baseball (MLB) clubhouses for decades, often referred to as "greenies," before being officially banned in 2005. Today, their use is prohibited without a specific Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) for conditions like ADHD.

Historical Context (pre-2005)

Widespread Culture: Amphetamines were the "worst-kept secret in the clubhouse," with some estimates suggesting usage rates as high as 85% among players at various times. Players and staff often viewed them similarly to strong coffee, a necessary "pick-me-up" to manage the fatigue of a long, 162-game season and frequent travel.

Availability: The substances were openly available, sometimes in jars next to sunflower seeds or mixed into clubhouse coffee.
Notable Users: Numerous prominent players from past eras, including Hall of Famers like Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and Hank Aaron, were alleged or admitted users.

Perceived Effects: Players used them to mask pain and fatigue, increase energy, alertness, focus, and reaction time, and some claimed it helped them "see the ball better".

Jim Bouton's famous 1970 book, Ball Four, extensively discussed the widespread use of "greenies" (amphetamines) by Major League Baseball players for energy, alongside other candid revelations about clubhouse life, which caused a huge scandal and controversy at the time. Bouton revealed players took these pep pills to stay awake and energized during long seasons, shocking the public and baseball establishment.

[BioCRN]

It's a March - September (occasionally October) grind.

Speed absolutely plays a factor for some guys as far as being ready to perform though fatigue and injury.

It can help get your mind/attitude ready to compete as well as help one ignore or push through soreness.

Conditioning the body to perform and being able to perform are part of the performance aspect of being an athlete.

[nwobhm]

Anabolic steroids have been around since the 1950’s. +/-75yrs worth of doubt.

[nwobhm]

Quick Google search:

Anabolic steroids became illegal for non-medical use in the United States when the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 was enacted on November 29, 1990. This act placed them under Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA).

If above is in fact correct we have a 40ish year window where they were legal.

Maybe we just let them all in since there are obviously many a HOF player using between 1950 and 1990. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clueless.

If PEDs didn’t exist who would be in HOF? It’s an unknown at this point.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

It may be a small thing to many people, but when they had the 2004 post-WS celebration on field at Fenway, the imbecilic Ortiz felt the need to blast the F word into the microphone as part of his little speech for all the world to hear. Yes, kids hear that word all over the place, and I'm not as much of a vernacular prude as this makes me sound, but have a modicum of tact, Ortiz. He is such a putz. What's weird is that nobody in the crowd seemed to care, nor did I hear anyone mention it in the media afterward. Maybe I was all alone in my annoyance, but that's fine.

You're not alone, I didn't like it either. But it was 2013 pre-game not 2004. It was mentioned in the media and basically celebrated as a show of defiance and "Boston attitude" after the marathon bombing.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Tabe

You're not alone, I didn't like it either. But it was 2013 pre-game not 2004. It was mentioned in the media and basically celebrated as a show of defiance and "Boston attitude" after the marathon bombing.

Oh, really? I remember it as being 2004 and as part of a celebratory event. Thanks for the correction, though. Either way, it was just low class.

I was watching it live, and I have not tuned in to a live baseball game or event at home since 2004. My memory is clearly playing tricks on me, unless Ortiz did this twice. That could very well be, too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Adderall is amphetamines and dextroamphetamine salts.

I've taken it for a while, but not currently. One dosage my doctor asked how it was going, and I said it made me feel like a pro ballplayer... something I then had to explain - that dosage came in green capsules.

I also have been to the batting cages both with and without it, and with ritalin.
No improvement was found in any way. I was still a modified/slowpitch batter with moderate power.

Maybe it helped pay attention while a pitcher was doing pitcher things?

NOT a PED.

Adderall is 100% a PED and a damn good one. I get what you are saying but you are going to a batting cage a few times. You would have gotten the same result no matter the PED. PEDs are not magic, you still have to put in the work. Now if you spent several hours in a batting cage every day for months on end without improvement then maybe it just don't work for you.

[packs]

I thought maybe Chris Davis stunk because he wasn't taking adderrall but it looks like his career tanked after he got his exemption.

[frankbmd]

They should build a Hall of Fame drug store in Cooperstown with different historically accurate selections for each decade and develop metrics for the impact of each drug on the game. Players who fail to be selected for the Hall would be welcomed into the Hall of Fame Pharmacy by providing their list of when and which were drugs taken.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

They should build a Hall of Fame drug store in Cooperstown with different historically accurate selections for each decade and develop metrics for the impact of each drug on the game. Players who fail to be selected for the Hall would be welcomed into the Hall of Fame Pharmacy by providing their list of when and which were drugs taken.

Joking aside this is a great idea.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Adderall is 100% a PED and a damn good one. I get what you are saying but you are going to a batting cage a few times. You would have gotten the same result no matter the PED. PEDs are not magic, you still have to put in the work. Now if you spent several hours in a batting cage every day for months on end without improvement then maybe it just don't work for you.

No amount of work with or without would help my batting. I just wasn't gifted with quickness that is the basis of power. I compensate by using a heavy bat.
I had the clue about it when I tried out for my college ski team. Interesting drills.
One was a shuttle run, followed by a shuttle run carrying someone about the same size. My times were very close, and also more than a bit slow. The coach thought I was slacking on the unloaded run and made me do it like three times. Never really changed my time in the run. Figured I could probably do about the same with even more weight, last run was carrying the heaviest guy there. Marginally slower.

At the time I was cycling a lot as many skiers did in summer, and was racing. So not exactly out of shape. (Being able to use higher gearing made me fast enough to race)

I have real doubts about any of the ADD meds actually improving performance. I suppose it's possible if you take tons of the stuff.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by steve B

No amount of work with or without would help my batting. I just wasn't gifted with quickness that is the basis of power. I compensate by using a heavy bat.
I had the clue about it when I tried out for my college ski team. Interesting drills.
One was a shuttle run, followed by a shuttle run carrying someone about the same size. My times were very close, and also more than a bit slow. The coach thought I was slacking on the unloaded run and made me do it like three times. Never really changed my time in the run. Figured I could probably do about the same with even more weight, last run was carrying the heaviest guy there. Marginally slower.

At the time I was cycling a lot as many skiers did in summer, and was racing. So not exactly out of shape. (Being able to use higher gearing made me fast enough to race)

I have real doubts about any of the ADD meds actually improving performance. I suppose it's possible if you take tons of the stuff.

Some of the benefit of ADD drugs is it temporarily blocks fatigue (common due to long seasons, inconsistent sleep/awake hours, etc). Basically amphetamines so get you through the game. As a physician we were able to do the same naturally with amino acids or herbs that do not have the downside and can be corrective as opposed to the side effects of the drugs. The question of when it crosses the line is an interesting one. The stress of players lifestyles depletes certain nutrients quicker than someone in a less stressful lifestyle. Their adrenaline stores get depleted. Supplying those nutrients that the body converts into adrenaline can do wonders for energy and focus and thus performance