Honus Wagner t206 in Goldin tomorrow (6/21/25) - what will it sell for?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My card. I was only willing to sell it if I got my price, thus the reserve. My contract reserve was substantially higher than where it ended. We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc. Ultimately, we decided to start the bidding at $2mm.

I think Goldin did an amazing job marketing the card. In the end, the card is not yet worth what I am willing to part with it at. I don’t intend to comment further.

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price. Take the case at hand -- the just-completed Goldin auction. Suppose, say, your reserve was a hammer price of $5M, and, say further, that all bids in excess of $3M were placed by the AH, until the bidding reached $4.9M. And then, at that level, a bid was finally placed at $5M to take it to your $5M minimum, at which point the auction ended. How do we know the person who placed that $5M bid would have been willing to do so if he/she knew he/she was the only bidder above $3M? Humans bid in part based on their perception about what other bidders would be willing to pay. Yes, I get it the AH rules in the fine print disclose that AH bidding on the behalf of the consignor is allowed. But, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread alone, many bidders do not read/understand the full implications of what this means.

This practice of AH bidding is something I have been railing about for many years. IMO, it is nothing less than legalized fraud, rationalized that it is okay to con somebody as long as you give notice ahead of time (via the fine print in the AH rules) that you are trying to con him/her.

In outlining all of this I am not saying you are bad person, or did anything (i) AHs do not encourage or (ii) that the great majority of potential consignors would not be willing to do. But to me the system stinks and should be changed.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price.

This statement is incorrect. I did not use Goldin bc of their “bidding system”. Indeed, that was not even a consideration for me. Rather, I used Goldin bc i have had a lot of success with them on prior sales (never a reserve), I knew Ken would market the heck out of it (and he did), and because Joe is a friend and I trust him. This is the only card I ever consigned with a reserve (to Goldin or anyone), and bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

[brunswickreeves]

FWIW, I think the consignor did right by his card. He entered the auction in earnest to find it a new home with someone whom valued it more than he did. That didn’t happen this time, so the card remains with the person whom values and cherishes it most.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Really, Rob? I’m not seeing many Net54’erd consigning vintage baseball cards to Sotheby’s, Christie’s, Bonham’s, etc. I couldn’t afford to pay the shipping cost alone in a Christie’s auction.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Really, Rob? I’m not seeing many Net54’erd consigning vintage baseball cards to Sotheby’s, Christie’s, Bonham’s, etc. I couldn’t afford to pay the shipping cost alone in a Christie’s auction.

I believe that this is the way that some auction houses in our hobby do it too, such as Mile High Card Company, SCP, etc.

I am not saying that I like this method, but it seems to be very common within the auction business and the norm with the big international houses. It not like Goldin is alone.

[Snapolit1]

How is this any different from me just asking my best friend to push my card into the millions and stop just a dollar before the undeclared reserve price. Lets see if we can get someone in the hook and reel him in. No one would be defending that as ethical. Why is it any different if the auction house is doing it. I’d say it’s even worse.

Even though it says in the fine print that this could happen, me as the bidder of course has no idea whether or not it’s a legitimate bidder on the other end.

I would think any bid on an auction that is not intended in good faith to win an item is a fraudulent bid.

[oldjudge]

I think all auction house bids should show up as such in a bid history.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think all auction house bids should show up as such is a bid history.

It would also be cool to know how much it costs to put a reserve on a card like that. It sure couldn't have been free to run the auction and not sell it.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It would also be cool to know how much it costs to put a reserve on a card like that. It sure couldn't have been free to run the auction and not sell it.

A card like that brings eyes to an auction even if it doesn't sell. Most auction houses would pay to have it in their auction.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It would also be cool to know how much it costs to put a reserve on a card like that. It sure couldn't have been free to run the auction and not sell it.

Great question Ben. In this case, Goldin charged me nothing to put a reserve, which is another reason I went with them. As mentioned, there was no way I was letting this go unless I got my number, so I would not consign without a reserve. This is the first time I ever put a reserve on a consignment, so I do not have a ton of experience on the matter. It is my understanding that some AHs charge the consignor the BP on the reserve amount if the card is not sold, some AHs charge a fee, some AHs do not allow reserves, and some allow them without a charge; I expect its all part of each consignment negotiation.

Corey, I will 100% consign to Goldin again, but I expect this is the last and only card I put a reserve on. I will also bid with Goldin -- I know what I am willing to pay and I will bid to that point. That said, I too do not like when the AH can place house bids. I think that sucks. Many/most AHs have the right to do this and I expect many do.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

i think all auction house bids should show up as such is a bid history.

100%

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

How is this any different from me just asking my best friend to push my card into the millions and stop just a dollar before the undeclared reserve price. Lets see if we can get someone in the hook and reel him in. No one would be defending that as ethical. Why is it any different if the auction house is doing it. I’d say it’s even worse.

Even though it says in the fine print that this could happen, me as the bidder of course has no idea whether or not it’s a legitimate bidder on the other end.

I would think any bid on an auction that is not intended in good faith to win an item is a fraudulent bid.

Not much difference, in terms of the impact but in one case the house is telling you that is what is happening and in the other it lacks the disclosure. In my opinion there is a lot of both instances going on in these auctions. Know what you want to pay and be willing to walk away empty handed.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This statement is incorrect. I did not use Goldin bc of their “bidding system”. Indeed, that was not even a consideration for me. Rather, I used Goldin bc i have had a lot of success with them on prior sales (never a reserve), I knew Ken would market the heck out of it (and he did), and because Joe is a friend and I trust him. This is the only card I ever consigned with a reserve (to Goldin or anyone), and bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

Your own words -- "We discussed at length whether we start the auction at my reserve or whether we run a process, etc."

The "process" here I would characterize as market manipulation. None of this would be the case if you started at your reserve as you had the option to do. Ken advised you correctly. The process, which, yes, many AHs employ, is intended to induce third-party bids that were made only because of the belief the prior bid was a "real" (i.e,, not AH bid). So, you stood a better chance of realizing your minimum sell price by this method than by simply starting at your reserve.

I take you at your word that you did not use Goldin because they employ such a bidding system. As noted, many other AHs employ the same system. The question is the next time you look to sell it, assuming you sell it at auction, will you be willing to either sell with an AH that does not bid on the behalf of the consignor, or in the alternative start the bidding at your reserve price?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

bottom line is the card is not yet worth what I need to part with it.

Enough said.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I respect the fact that you are not willing to sell until you reach your price. My issue is that you appear willing to sell only under a bidding system that allows the AH to manipulate the market to allow it to reach your price. Take the case at hand -- the just-completed Goldin auction. Suppose, say, your reserve was a hammer price of $5M, and, say further, that all bids in excess of $3M were placed by the AH, until the bidding reached $4.9M. And then, at that level, a bid was finally placed at $5M to take it to your $5M minimum, at which point the auction ended. How do we know the person who placed that $5M bid would have been willing to do so if he/she knew he/she was the only bidder above $3M? Humans bid in part based on their perception about what other bidders would be willing to pay. Yes, I get it the AH rules in the fine print disclose that AH bidding on the behalf of the consignor is allowed. But, as evidenced by the discussion in this thread alone, many bidders do not read/understand the full implications of what this means.

This practice of AH bidding is something I have been railing about for many years. IMO, it is nothing less than legalized fraud, rationalized that it is okay to con somebody as long as you give notice ahead of time (via the fine print in the AH rules) that you are trying to con him/her.

In outlining all of this I am not saying you are bad person, or did anything (i) AHs do not encourage or (ii) that the great majority of potential consignors would not be willing to do. But to me the system stinks and should be changed.

Isn't this how most of the major auction houses conduct their auctions in regards to reserves? Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonham's, collectible car auctions, etc?