Does PSA give favoritism to certain dealers/customers?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ima Pseudonym

Nobody puts a "minimum grade 10" on their card, unless they know they're going to get 10s.

There are many examples where there are a very limited number of 10's have ever been graded of a certain card over decades, and it turns out the majority of them were all graded at the same time, in the same submission, for the same submitter.

That's not happenstance, that's fraud.

No argument from me about the overall thesis, for sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Fair enough!

Now I just need to get the 4SC guys to sign up for this study.

Better yet, get them to submit your cards for you.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Ima Pseudonym

Nobody puts a "minimum grade 10" on their card, unless they know they're going to get 10s.

There are many examples where there are a very limited number of 10's have ever been graded of a certain card over decades, and it turns out the majority of them were all graded at the same time, in the same submission, for the same submitter.

That's not happenstance, that's fraud.

You can have any opinion you want but at the top of every page it clearly states. If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Better yet, get them to submit your cards for you.

I honestly don't submit much. Most of what I do submit ends up being graded 1 or A. I'm guessing the outcome won't be all that different if they submit for me.

Here's a good example from my most recent submission. Pretty confident that this one will get the A.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It was just a joke.
But I don't think anyone should be surprised, the world works on the Animal Farm principle. Suppose I try to get an appointment with a famous orthopedic surgeon and am told he has a six month wait. Do you think if Jayson Tatum called they would tell him the same thing?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It was just a joke.
But I don't think anyone should be surprised, the world works on the Animal Farm principle. Suppose I try to get an appointment with a famous orthopedic surgeon and am told he has a six month wait. Do you think if Jayson Tatum called they would tell him the same thing?

I do think there are some major submitters who bundle up submissions to submit on behalf of others. Not sure if 4SC offers this service, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I do think there are some major submitters who bundle up submissions to submit on behalf of others. Not sure if 4SC offers this service, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

I don't know, but I would guess they have so many of their own cards and such a robust business they don't need to mess with all the hassle being an aggregator entails.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't know, but I would guess they have so many of their own cards and such a robust business they don't need to mess with all the hassle being an aggregator entails.

If not them, then maybe another major submitter that does mess with it? Seems like a solid strategy for trying to get better grades.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You can have any opinion you want but at the top of every page it clearly states. If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.

You suggesting that Ima isn’t the poster’s real given name?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Fair enough, and here's my final thoughts about all this: on your first point, what you've left out is where the submitter's person at the TPG tells the original grader, or a different grader, what grades the submitter would be happy with for what cards, or even to bump them all up a notch or two, or even that the submitter wasn't happy, leaving it to the imagination of the grader as to how far to go to please said submitter. I just can't see that happening, for all the reasons I have laid out before. As to your experiences listening to the complaints of those convinced they don't get the love for their submissions as the AHs, whales, etc., I have no rebuttal that other than the same vague feeling I get when I take my 2007 Highlander into the dealership for service that I might not be getting quite the same level of care and attention as the guy with his brand new Sequoia. No proof, mind you, just a feeling, and don't get me wrong, I love both my Highlander and my dealer.

Well I know for a fact that my car dealership gives much better service to their entertainer clientele than I get because I have gotten friendly with a few of the employees since I keep leasing cars from them and they like to share stories with me about how high maintenance these clients are. I think it goes without saying that bigger clients get much better service. In the grading world it is clear service does not just mean cheaper grading fees and faster turnaround time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

You suggesting that Ima isn’t the poster’s real given name?

A nom de guerre perhaps.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A nom de guerre perhaps.

Ima crossed the anonymity line.

.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buy 100 PSA 10s from 4SC. Resubmit them raw. See how many 10s you get. It won't be more than a handful. Read the Blowout threads about the staggering number of altered cards graded for certain substantial dealers. I have known, for better or worse, dealers willing to tell me things and there is no doubt at all that who submits, or asks for a review, matters. You can choose to believe what you want or demand any standard of proof, but this is how it works. PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

I guess, except for the fact that all of this is fraud, pure and simple. Have you contacted the FBI and Operation Bullpen? I hope so, and I hope the perps go to jail to set an example arid rid the hobby of this kind of illegal behavior forever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I guess, except for the fact that all of this is fraud, pure and simple. Have you contacted the FBI and Operation Bullpen? I hope so, and I hope the perps go to jail to set an example arid rid the hobby of this kind of illegal behavior forever.

Don't know where you've been my friend, but there was a years long investigation by the FBI. It was discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't know where you've been my friend, but there was a years long investigation by the FBI. It was discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

It seemed like decades long...

Hank my friend, are you going to be at the National this year?
.

[HOF_Forever]

Dumb question (perhaps): is 4SC referring to 4 Sharp Corners? If so, I thought they were just a consignor of cards that are already graded. Do they offer bulk grading too?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by HOF_Forever

Dumb question (perhaps): is 4SC referring to 4 Sharp Corners? If so, I thought they were just a consignor of cards that are already graded. Do they offer bulk grading too?

4SC is definitely 4 sharp corners. No different than any other dealer, I think they buy raw cards and get them graded, then sell them once graded. Pretty sure they also buy existing graded cards and then re-sell them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF_Forever

Dumb question (perhaps): is 4SC referring to 4 Sharp Corners? If so, I thought they were just a consignor of cards that are already graded. Do they offer bulk grading too?

Yes. They do take consignments for a while now but historically and for the most part sell their own and always have. Mega submitter for a long long time.

[HOF_Forever]

Thanks for the information. I only came across them recently as an Ebay consignor and was unaware of their history.

[Peter_Spaeth]

2.2 million items sold, according to ebay. Not to mention countless sales off their still active website.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't know where you've been my friend, but there was a years long investigation by the FBI. It was discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

LOL! Well someone earlier on this thread had no idea that the T206 Wagner 8 was trimmed. Not sure if that means two people here are not dialed in 24/7 to the hobby or if they are not paying attention.

[mannequin1]

The worst possible scenario would be someone who's real tight with at least 1 of the graders, who then gives their vintage cards 8's, 9's or even a 10 knowing they're overgrading, for a cut of the profits.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Ima Pseudonym

...why WOULDN'T they want a 9?...

In the wild, wacky world of modern cards, a graded 9 often sells for less than a raw, pack fresh equivalent. That's counter-intuitive, in my opinion; however, it seems to be the current reality.

[sacentaur]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So on the Gretzgy Wagner - It sounds like the entire world believes that it is not a legitimate "8"

Is that correct?

To me - a grade of 8 on that card is not a stretch - What am I missing?

The PSA grader for that Wagner was Bill Hughes, an individual who was mistrusted by a large portion of the comic book collecting hobby (Hughes was a vintage comic book dealer). I believe he later admitted that he knew the card had been trimmed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In the wild, wacky world of modern cards, a graded 9 often sells for less than a raw, pack fresh equivalent. That's counter-intuitive, in my opinion; however, it seems to be the current reality.

The raw has a chance at a 10 is why, no?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't know where you've been my friend, but there was a years long investigation by the FBI. It was discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

I'm well aware of Operation Bullpen, that's why I mentioned it. But I must have missed the part where they looked into card grading and possible fraud between the TPGs and dealers and AHs. What was the result, did they find everything you're talking about and did people go to jail for it?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

There are some logical problems with this, mostly that there are probably fifteen AHs and fifty dealers who submit thousands of cards annually for their auctions or sales. Since all of them do the same volume of business with the TPGs as the others, more or less, why would any of them get preference over the others? And since they all watch each other's auctions like hawks, it would be a very short time before the "losers" in this competition to corrupt the TPGs were complaining vociferously about their status, or lack thereof, in this game, or even worse, switching TPGs or going to the authorities with their complaints. And you only talk about the AHs and dealers, what about collectors--a substantial segment of the TPG's business, no doubt, who see the grades in catalogs and at shows and realize they're getting the short end of the stick? How do you think they must feel, and are they just going to sit back and take it? It just all seems too implausible to me. As I've said before, I want to see some proof.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't have the time, energy, or motivation to reproduce all the threads from Blowout identifying altered cards and their sources, all the analyses of submissions they did, or to more importantly to reconstruct all the countless conversations I've had over the course of decades that inform my views on this subject. The question was posed, and I offered my views, which apparently many others share. You are free to believe what you want and to do whatever burden of proof thing you wish.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Seems like just about everyone is in agreement on this one. How about another question, is it just me or does it seem like if you submit 9 commons from XYZ card set to TPG along with a Babe Ruth from the same set, how many times do the 9 commons come back, a couple higher than expected, a couple lower than expected and most right about where expected. How about the Ruth? From my experience, 99.99% of the time comes back lower than expected. Thus, leading me to believe that the “high-end” card(s) gets scrutinized much more closely than the common cards. Others feel the same way?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mannequin1

The worst possible scenario would be someone who's real tight with at least 1 of the graders, who then gives their vintage cards 8's, 9's or even a 10 knowing they're overgrading, for a cut of the profits.

That's called fraud, and they could both do some serious time for it. If you see something, say something. What have you got?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The raw has a chance at a 10 is why, no?

I suppose that's the rationale.

Still, it seems absurd to me. If I played the grading game, cracking a 9 would seem a better bet than taking chances with Internet images or sub-optimal card show lighting.

Oh well. What do I know? I collect cards, not flips.

(yeah, I know...the flip is the commodity these days)

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

It seemed like decades long...
Hank my friend, are you going to be at the National this year?
.

Pretty serious allegations with little to back them up, seems to me. What do you think? As for the National, as the song goes, I don't get around much any more, sorry to say. Just embarked on my 80th year, bring it to D.C., Baltimore, or Philly, though, and I'm there in a heartbeat. You going?

[jingram058]

Ask the 3rd class passengers on the Titanic how it works. Not much has changed since 1912. Baltic Fox called it right - money talks.

I saw it first hand a few years ago on New Years Eve over in Coral Springs. One of the attorneys my wife worked for (paralegal) held a little hoop tee do in their exclusive cul de sac. He arranged for a flatbed trailer with commercial fireworks. But he didn't give a thought to a permit. Sure enough, Broward County Sheriff's Office showed up, and the 2 deputies walked up to Ronnie and asked to see the permit. Ronnie pulled out his wallet and started pulling out $100 bills. He asked how much does it take to get a permit? At about 6 or 7, the deputies said that will do it, took the money, and drove away.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't have the time, energy, or motivation to reproduce all the threads from Blowout identifying altered cards and their sources, all the analyses of submissions they did, or to more importantly to reconstruct all the countless conversations I've had over the course of decades that inform my views on this subject. The question was posed, and I offered my views, which apparently many others share. You are free to believe what you want and to do whatever burden of proof thing you wish.

I will, of course, but the burden of proof is on those making such serious accusations. So far, I haven't seen squat.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Pretty serious allegations with little to back them up, seems to me. What do you think? As for the National, as the song goes, I don't get around much any more, sorry to say. Just embarked on my 80th year, bring it to D.C., Baltimore, or Philly, though, and I'm there in a heartbeat. You going?

Great song. Here's a Duke Ellington instrumental version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEIhNZd9xEE

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I will, of course, but the burden of proof is on those making such serious accusations. So far, I haven't seen squat.

The OP asked for people's views. By stating mine I did not assume any burden to prove anything to anyone or convince someone who has not read anything on the subject even though lots has been posted. Nor did anyone else who is of the same view, and they are legion. If you are interested start with the Blowout threads, there's a sticky at the top of the baseball forum and go from there. Read the Joe C. thread I linked, although that just involves preferential grading not altered cards. With all respect, saying "I haven't seen squat" doesn't mean much when you haven't read what is out there.

[Bigdaddy]

In response to the OP's question:

Is a bullfrog waterproof?

[Topnotchsy]

I see a lot of people opining, but would love actual data on this. I have to wonder if people are confusing noise for bias.

It's a sample of 1, but an auction house submitted a card for me recently to PSA and it got a solid 1-2 grades below what I anticipated.

Not arguing that any of the companies are above doing so, just would love actual data.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I see a lot of people opining, but would love actual data on this. I have to wonder if people are confusing noise for bias.

It's a sample of 1, but an auction house submitted a card for me recently to PSA and it got a solid 1-2 grades below what I anticipated.

Not arguing that any of the companies are above doing so, just would love actual data.

TPGs do not tell us who submit cards. There is no data. One can try to reconstruct subs to make observations but with millions of cards out there that would be an absurd project. And what would be the point anyhow?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Seems like just about everyone is in agreement on this one. How about another question, is it just me or does it seem like if you submit 9 commons from XYZ card set to TPG along with a Babe Ruth from the same set, how many times do the 9 commons come back, a couple higher than expected, a couple lower than expected and most right about where expected. How about the Ruth? From my experience, 99.99% of the time comes back lower than expected. Thus, leading me to believe that the “high-end” card(s) gets scrutinized much more closely than the common cards. Others feel the same way?

I haven't looked at Ruth Cards, but have looked at a handful of special cards. And they generally have more lenient grades than commons.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Great song. Here's a Duke Ellington instrumental version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEIhNZd9xEE

Nice. I remember it well from my youth, a "standard" as they would say.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The OP asked for people's views. By stating mine I did not assume any burden to prove anything to anyone or convince someone who has not read anything on the subject even though lots has been posted. Nor did anyone else who is of the same view, and they are legion. If you are interested start with the Blowout threads, there's a sticky at the top of the baseball forum and go from there. Read the Joe C. thread I linked, although that just involves preferential grading not altered cards. With all respect, saying "I haven't seen squat" doesn't mean much when you haven't read what is out there.

Fair enough. But just because I was looking for anyone who would make such a serious accusation as that the TPGs are in collusion with their biggest customers to game the system in their favor to show at least a modicum of backup for that claim doesn't mean I wanted to do a lot of homework to develop an opinion of my own. That burden should be on those answering the question in the positive, a very serious charge, indeed. And I would still be interested in some details in this thread about how this all works, i.e., is it just the very biggest AHs and dealers among all the big ones? are they paying extra for these preferences, and if not how are the TPGs benefiting from activities that could sink their entire business if this became widely believed? Why would collectors continue to participate in a game they thought was rigged against them and costing them tons of money? I don't see it, I just don't. Isolated examples? Sure. Endemic to the hobby? Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

Not passing judgment on the facts here, but as a practical matter, lots of insalubrious hobbies, industries, and organizations continue for a long, long time simply because we all decide we want to keep it going. Whatever its flaws, the participants decide that it's worth having and continuing. At least until such time as they decide that it's no longer worth continuing, or it gets supplanted by a better option.

Since you seem to like examples, without naming specifics, just about every company is flawed in some fashion, often deeply, yet its customers keep coming back, often because there is no better alternative. Certainly you could make a similar argument about the business of producing and distributing controlled substances, although their addictive properties may be an element that sets them apart from garden variety pursuits like collecting cardboard.

And if you want to get more metaphysical, then you could point to just about every religion and government as being in the same boat. In some cases, including that whole notion of corruption that you raised.

Note for Leon and the moderators: The last paragraph was deliberately generic to avoid touching on religion or politics in any specific fashion, but I'm happy to revise if I've crossed the line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Fair enough. But just because I was looking for anyone who would make such a serious accusation as that the TPGs are in collusion with their biggest customers to game the system in their favor to show at least a modicum of backup for that claim doesn't mean I wanted to do a lot of homework to develop an opinion of my own. That burden should be on those answering the question in the positive, a very serious charge, indeed. And I would still be interested in some details in this thread about how this all works, i.e., is it just the very biggest AHs and dealers among all the big ones? are they paying extra for these preferences, and if not how are the TPGs benefiting from activities that could sink their entire business if this became widely believed? Why would collectors continue to participate in a game they thought was rigged against them and costing them tons of money? I don't see it, I just don't. Isolated examples? Sure. Endemic to the hobby? Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

To answer your last question, because, as I like to say, stuff trumps all. This hobby for many if not most people has become all about the numbers on the flip. The more slabbed cards are out there with high grades, the more money everyone makes. Take care of your best customers, and they will keep coming back. Do you think if PSA had not taken care of high volume modern submitters it would have been able to displace and crush Beckett which at one time was the market leader in modern? People submit to make money. People make money by getting higher grades. Back in the day, vintage grew the same way. Do you really think all those 8s and 9s filling up the set registries are pristine cards from virgin sets?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Seems like just about everyone is in agreement on this one. How about another question, is it just me or does it seem like if you submit 9 commons from XYZ card set to TPG along with a Babe Ruth from the same set, how many times do the 9 commons come back, a couple higher than expected, a couple lower than expected and most right about where expected. How about the Ruth? From my experience, 99.99% of the time comes back lower than expected. Thus, leading me to believe that the “high-end” card(s) gets scrutinized much more closely than the common cards. Others feel the same way?

THIS is spot-on. They are waaaaaaaay tougher on the star players. The more that's at stake, the harder you'll get screwed on the grade. Guaranteed.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

THIS is spot-on. They are waaaaaaaay tougher on the star players. The more that's at stake, the harder you'll get screwed on the grade. Guaranteed.

This is why when you have a good card a really good one you should go with the higher service level vs sneaking it in budget and trying to get a call for an upcharge.

[Keith H. Thompson]

the higher the grade, the more value is perceived by bidders and sellers ? It seems logical to me to believe that AHs feel the same way.

By way of a specific example, I recall when a lady collector was consigning her modest collection to REA. She told us on Net54 that she offered to have her cards graded and assume the cost. REA politely told her not to. They would do so. The reason may have been that they could get a faster turn around (this was a long time ago). The consignment was heavy in DeLongs, and REA would be in a position to educate the graders on the special problems with that issue (narrow borders) . My own thoughts on the matter say that where money is involved, and no way to "prove" anything like in a court of law, that "devil take the hindmost."

[hammertime]

I've bought some cheap 70s and 80s HOF slabs from 4SC to crack out and get signed. Usually PSA 9s. I have been absolutely shocked at how awful many of them look after cracking them. 6s and 7s at best.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by hammertime

I've bought some cheap 70s and 80s HOF slabs from 4SC to crack out and get signed. Usually PSA 9s. I have been absolutely shocked at how awful many of them look after cracking them. 6s and 7s at best.

Hankphenom is going to need to see proof of that. Do you have video, affidavits and expert witnesses? Anything short of that is just disgruntled collectors acting up and he will just not believe it.