Eddie Cicotte's HOF chances - should he get in? Will he?

[gregndodgers]

He was one of the best pitchers at the time of the scandal and he could have played another ten years or so, so he was a shoe in for the hall until he wasn’t.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

He was one of the best pitchers at the time of the scandal and he could have played another ten years or so, so he was a shoe in for the hall until he wasn’t.

He would have pitched until he was 46? Seems unlikely.

[gregndodgers]

Many of the pitchers from that era pitched into their 40s. Grover Cleveland Alexander (43), Cy Young (44), and Chief Bender (41) to name a few. He was a knuckleball specialist, and we know that many contemporary knuckleball pitchers pitched well into their 40s including Charlie Hough (46), Phil Niekro (48), and Hoyt Wilhelm (49). Father Time gives them a break.

[packs]

Cicotte was only getting better as he aged. He had a WAR of 57.9 for his career, but put up 40 WAR after age 30. He won 209 games, but 129 of those wins came after turning 30.

From age 33 to 36 he won 90 games with an ERA+ of 134.

There was no indication his career was nearly over.

[gregndodgers]

There are 27 pitchers who are in the HOF rated below him in terms of JAWS, so yea his chances are low. LoL

[campyfan39]

My only pre-war card!

[gregndodgers]

Although I believe Cicotte has HOF worthy numbers, the bigger issue is whether his acts in helping throw the World Series constitute such reprehensible moral turpitude, that either he should not be eligible for the HOF or that it is sufficient for voters to refrain from electing him.

“This is terrible for my family,” Cicotte said. “My poor kids – oh, why did I do it? I’ve lived a terrible year in the last 12 months.”

“He admitted that the whole plan was his idea. “I refused to pitch a ball until I got the money. It [the $10,000 in cash] was placed under my pillow in the hotel the night before the first game of the Series. Every one [of the players] was paid individually, and the same scheme was used to deliver it.”

“Cicotte admitted to deliberately hitting the leadoff batter in Game 1 and that in Game 4, he purposefully intercepted a throw from Jackson in the outfield that would have caught a Reds player, and made a wild throw to first, both resulting in two runs for the Reds, who won 2-0. He said he and fellow pitcher Williams also ignored pitch signals given by catcher Ray Schalk, who was not in on the scam.”

“For the Series, the Sox’s so-called ace Cicotte yielded 19 hits and 9 runs (7 earned) in 21 2/3rd innings, with one win (game 6) and two losses (games 1 and 4).”

https://themobmuseum.org/blog/the-bl...0-years-later/

So given that many players who were later elected to the HOF with a checkered past and morally reprehensible conduct, what standard should be used for the voters? Should it be a personal one or an objective standard that we can all determine?

For me, this is the issue.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

There are 27 pitchers who are in the HOF rated below him in terms of JAWS, so yea his chances are low. LoL

Alright, fine, you can vote for him. But first you have to vote for Roger Clemens, Jim McCormick, Curt Schilling, Tommy Bond, Charlie Buffinton, Tony Mullane, Bob Caruthers, Wes Ferrell, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Jim Whitney, Luis Tiant, Bobby Mathews, David Cone, and Urban Shocker.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Alright, fine, you can vote for him. But first you have to vote for Roger Clemens, Jim McCormick, Curt Schilling, Tommy Bond, Charlie Buffinton, Tony Mullane, Bob Caruthers, Wes Ferrell, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Jim Whitney, Luis Tiant, Bobby Mathews, David Cone, and Urban Shocker.

I would vote yes for all the pitchers on this list that I actually saw pitch including Clemens, Schilling, Kevin Brown, Tiant, and Cone. They were all top pitchers during their era, and unless they killed a person with no justification, I would let a person in. For the ones like the black Sox who threw games, a lifetime ban is sufficient punishment. For steroid users, take their stats pre steroid use, and use only those stats to vote yes or no.