Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson Reinstated by MLB

[biggsdaddycool]

No doubt MLB sees some sort of money making scheme in reinstating them.


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[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by biggsdaddycool

No doubt MLB sees some sort of money making scheme in reinstating them.


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Manfred met with Trump last month. In February Trump was tweeting about "pardoning" him. He's spoken about it between then and now. He'll probably have something to tweet about it sometime between now and tomorrow.

Manfred didn't become commish recently, nor is this a new subject of debate.

[BioCRN]

Full list of those impacted, fwiw...

Eddie Cicotte
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Jackson
Fred McMullin
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Joe Gedeon
Gene Paulette
Benny Kauff
Lee Magee
Phil Douglas
Cozy Dolan
Jimmy O’Connell
William Cox (executive)
Pete Rose

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Full list of those impacted, fwiw...

Eddie Cicotte
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Jackson
Fred McMullin
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Joe Gedeon
Gene Paulette
Benny Kauff
Lee Magee
Phil Douglas
Cozy Dolan
Jimmy O’Connell
William Cox (executive)
Pete Rose

Why would Hal Chase not be included?

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Why would Hal Chase not be included?

Commish office didn't exist. He technically may be HOF eligable under HOF (different org) rules now, though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ironically, you can probably place bets on whether they will be elected or not.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ironically, you can probably place bets on whether they will be elected or not.

This is why.

Also not that it matters to the ones currently running MLB, but it reduces the hypocrisy of having people banned for gambling while the league itself has a team in Vegas and ties to online gambling through Fanatics.

So having standards and morality are out as long as there's buckets of money to be had.

I hate the world more nearly every day.

[Brian Van Horn]

Have to wonder how much the card prices will plummet on the players on the list. Jackson may be an exception. Still, he did take the $5000.00.

[Smanzari]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Full list of those impacted, fwiw...

Eddie Cicotte
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Jackson
Fred McMullin
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Joe Gedeon
Gene Paulette
Benny Kauff
Lee Magee
Phil Douglas
Cozy Dolan
Jimmy O’Connell
William Cox (executive)
Pete Rose

I wonder what this means for Hal Chase - IIRC he was never formally banned, but it was assumed because of his gambling history. (see this was answered above, but still leaving)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

I wonder what this means for Hal Chase - IIRC he was never formally banned, but it was assumed because of his gambling history. (see this was answered above, but still leaving)

He of the 23.0 WAR?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Full list of those impacted, fwiw...

Eddie Cicotte
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Jackson
Fred McMullin
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Joe Gedeon
Gene Paulette
Benny Kauff
Lee Magee
Phil Douglas
Cozy Dolan
Jimmy O’Connell
William Cox (executive)
Pete Rose

Things get a little tricky now.
They are all eligible to be on the ballot but
1.how many are really have a chance based on their career numbers? Espcially that many of them lost many years of their career that do not exist for their stats? would they have gone up or down? are they short on years of eligibility of 10 years etc?
2. Even though all are eligible how do the people on the committee view what they did. Ie Rose is accused of gambling on games vs Jackson and the others of throwing actual games and in a world series at that while William Cox was banned for trying to pay a player to throw a game.
Also Rose is current and many seen him play while others no one knows are seen them play

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Things get a little tricky now.
They are all eligible to be on the ballot but
1.how many are really have a chance based on their career numbers? Espcially that many of them lost many years of their career that do not exist for their stats? would they have gone up or down? are they short on years of eligibility of 10 years etc?
2. Even though all are eligible how do the people on the committee view what they did. Ie Rose is accused of gambling on games vs Jackson and the others of throwing actual games and in a world series at that while William Cox was banned for trying to pay a player to throw a game.
Also Rose is current and many seen him play while others no one knows are seen them play

I don't think it's that tricky. Other than Rose and Jackson, who else really has an argument that they're Hall of Fame level? Maybe Cicotte, but he's borderline at best. The rest you can look at their stats and figure out they don't need to be considered for the ballot. It doesn't matter what they might have done if they hadn't been banned. They were banned so their stats are their stats.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Things get a little tricky now.
They are all eligible to be on the ballot but
1.how many are really have a chance based on their career numbers? Espcially that many of them lost many years of their career that do not exist for their stats? would they have gone up or down? are they short on years of eligibility of 10 years etc?
2. Even though all are eligible how do the people on the committee view what they did. Ie Rose is accused of gambling on games vs Jackson and the others of throwing actual games and in a world series at that while William Cox was banned for trying to pay a player to throw a game.
Also Rose is current and many seen him play while others no one knows are seen them play

The players that didnt hit the 10 year mark I would assume are not eligible...sorry Buck Weaver fans, if his career continued it is very likely he would be a HOFer and the same could be argued for Lefty Williams and Hap Felsch and Lee Magee maybe.

Really to me there are only players on this list that are worthy of ballot placement and personally I think 2 are solid candidates and 1 is borderline

Good Chace
1. Rose
2. Jackson

Borderline
3. Cicotte

9 year players that should be considered if allowed but are Hall of Very Good Players
4. Buck Weaver - could argue Weaver is a borderline player
5. Chic Gandil - but he retired after 1919 so guess he wouldnt get any special consideration for a shortened career
6. Lee Magee

I personally would argue Cicotte is a HOFer as be basically invented the knuckleball and had solid peak years with a borderline win total and solid ERA...BUT he was a primary 1919 WS fixer that is not up for debate like Jackson's role is

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

The players that didnt hit the 10 year mark I would assume are not eligible...sorry Buck Weaver fans, if his career continued it is very likely he would be a HOFer and the same could be argued for Lefty Williams and Hap Felsch and Lee Magee maybe.

Really to me there are only players on this list that are worthy of ballot placement and personally I think 2 are solid candidates and 1 is borderline

Good Chace
1. Rose
2. Jackson

Borderline
3. Cicotte

9 year players that should be considered if allowed but are Hall of Very Good Players
4. Buck Weaver - could argue Weaver is a borderline player
5. Chic Gandil - but he retired after 1919 so guess he wouldnt get any special consideration for a shortened career
6. Lee Magee

I personally would argue Cicotte is a HOFer as be basically invented the knuckleball and had solid peak years with a borderline win total and solid ERA...BUT he was a primary 1919 WS fixer that is not up for debate like Jackson's role is

What makes you say Weaver could be considered a borderline Hall of Fame player? Nothing about his stats scream Hall of Fame to me. If he hadn't been part of the Black Sox scandal and wrongly banned in the eyes of many, I'm not sure if anyone would even know who he was today (even if you gave him 5 or 6 more years as a player). He would likely just be another unknown player from 100 years ago.

[JamesGallo]

Horrible move but a weak commissioner. Rose should never be in and Jackson should have been in ages ago. The fact is that the still need to be voted in, which might not happen especially with Rose.

Also if they do get in it certainly would be a hypocritical move if the steroids guys dont get in. So to me it becomes all or nothing and recent years the steroids guys have been kept out. We will see if this changes.

I think all the other Black Sox values are certainly greatly increased by the scandal, will this ruling really matter, I don't think so. People didn't buy their cards because they were banned from baseball, they bought them because they were part of the scandal, which will not change.

I do think Jackson's values are inflated, however who knows what he stats would have been when the ball went live. Maybe he would have been Ruthian....

James G

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by jayshum

What makes you say Weaver could be considered a borderline Hall of Fame player? Nothing about his stats scream Hall of Fame to me. If he hadn't been part of the Black Sox scandal and wrongly banned in the eyes of many, I'm not sure if anyone would even know who he was today (even if you gave him 5 or 6 more years as a player). He would likely just be another unknown player from 100 years ago.

Fair Point, but he was regarded as the best defensive 3B of his era which only produced one HOF 3B (Baker)who was known for his batting, Weaver was regarded as one of the best at his position during his playing days and was getting a peak when he was banned. Unfortunately bc of the ban Weaver didnt get the 1920s live ball boost others would get...same for Jackson and Felsch.


to your last point...Frank Baker is largely an unknown from 100+ years ago as are all but probably 1-5 HOFers from that era

[Johnny T]

Personally, I'm glad they are both in. Pete was my childhood idol...loved the way he played ("a try hard" as my kids call people like him) and since I was an average to an above average, I tried harder than others to excel.

Of course, later on in life, I learned Pete was not the greatest person in the world...far from it. I walked by the store he used to sign in Vegas and didn't give it much thought to bother to walk in and see him...but none of how I felt about him as an adult changed the way I felt about Pete as a player. Other than Cobb, I'm not sure any player wanted to win more.

None of us are old enough to remember what it was like seeing Jackson play, but I always felt like he got a raw deal more so than Rose. They say Jackson wasn't educated, was probably taken advantage of financially by Comiskey and my guess is that in the end, he didn't curtail his play based on his stats in the WS.

So better or worse, I'm glad they are both eligible...If they get in the Hall, great...they certainly deserve it based on their play.

Let's face it...we all have our skeletons....

[oldjudge]

I'm really glad that Pete and Jackson are now eligible. In the mid-1990s I took my daughter to a card show in central Connecticut and we were in line to get Pete's autograph. She was about 7 at the time which was the same age as Pete's daughter. He told my daughter that he had a daughter about the same age as her, stopped all his signing to get his suitcase that was under the table, opened it and pulled out a picture of his daughter to show her. I thought it was an incredible moment and I have admired the guy ever since.
As for Jackson, I think his scarcer cards, like some M101s, will explode in value if he is elected to the HOF.