Topic: Spirits who changed the soul of the game and their definitive cards

[dbussell12]

I'll go first... I think a lot about maris and jackie of course, but satchel as well. To me, these three irrevocably altered the foundation, fabric, and soul of the game in and by their presence. there's before and after maris, jackie, satchel in my opinion --- not just for what they did so to speak, or statistical accomplishments, but the heroic soul and presence they brought to the game.

i'll add a sleeper pick though... retirado mathewson. its my favorite card of his; in this condition its a sun bleached stone relic that recalls his excellence, presence, and stature as a star at the birth of modernity whose character changed what the game of baseball meant and could be at a foundational moral, social, and political level. very powerful figure to me; the card itself is a epic historical story to be told.

cheers; would love to hear your thoughts on this topic. i've been tossing it around as a question for a bit to myself. hope everyone is having a great start to the week!!!

[jingram058]

How about the man who single-handedly changed the game, who saved it in the aftermath of the Black Sox, who ended the dead ball era, who packed ball parks? If you ask anyone, even my daughter (who knows absolutely NOTHING about baseball), they know about or have at least heard of Babe Ruth.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by jingram058

How about the man who single-handedly changed the game, who saved it in the aftermath of the Black Sox, who ended the dead ball era, who packed ball parks? If you ask anyone, even my daughter (who knows absolutely NOTHING about baseball), they know about or have at least heard of Babe Ruth.

has to be the '33 goudey for him too. can't think of another more iconic and singular representation for the babe!

[jingram058]

I love these threads, and what I really miss about Ted Z. All about the cards, and the players behind them. Nothing at all about how much they're worth.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I love these threads, and what I really miss about Ted Z. All about the cards, and the players behind them. Nothing at all about how much they're worth.

james -- i'm really glad you like them. im a baseball historian/archivist! worked at smithsonian NMAH for awhile in the archives with the baseball artifacts. i think about history, meaning, and how it all works together. cards are awesome, but there's deep deep power behind the artifacts and images that i feel rarely if ever gets talked about in the hobby.

it sounds like Ted was a great guy. I'll have to look up his posts and comments. I'm sure there's great stuff in there.

Cheers; my best to you--
David

[Brent G.]

Speaking of "Soul of the Game," I think that's a very underrated sports movie (1996) about Jackie, Satch, Gibson, etc.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by jingram058

How about the man who single-handedly changed the game, who saved it in the aftermath of the Black Sox, who ended the dead ball era, who packed ball parks?

If true, that's yet another reason for me to dislike Babe Ruth. I loved the running game played during the dead ball era. That was far more entertaining, action filled baseball than the present swing for the fences game played these days.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Speaking of "Soul of the Game," I think that's a very underrated sports movie (1996) about Jackie, Satch, Gibson, etc.

adding this to my must watch list!!

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

If true, that's yet another reason for me to dislike Babe Ruth. I loved the running game played during the dead ball era. That was far more entertaining, action filled baseball than the present swing for the fences game played these days.

ha! i agree. my historical time period specialty is 1909-1919. what a fascinating period for the sport on all levels. so much happened during this period of rapid industrial, technological, and global shift in the game and in the country too. photojournalistically (with type 1s and orgs like bain and paul thompson + spooner and wells especially), with card drawings, design + lithography (caramels, t206s, et al) + of course the style and method of which the game was played.

running, defense, and pitching focused. what a time to watch the pitching duels and feats of pitchers like reulbach, wiltse, powell, etc. mathewson, wood, johnson. strategy minded and focused players like speaker. great stuff.

[GeoPoto]

Ruth certainly took maximum advantage of the demise of the dead ball era, and opened owners' eyes regarding the popularity of home runs, but Ray Chapman took the fastball that drove a steak in its heart:

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[jingram058]

Originally Posted by dbussell12

ha! i agree. my historical time period specialty is 1909-1919. what a fascinating period for the sport on all levels. so much happened during this period of rapid industrial, technological, and global shift in the game and in the country too. photojournalistically (with type 1s and orgs like bain and paul thompson + spooner and wells especially), with card drawings, design + lithography (caramels, t206s, et al) + of course the style and method of which the game was played.

running, defense, and pitching focused. what a time to watch the pitching duels and feats of pitchers like reulbach, wiltse, powell, etc. mathewson, wood, johnson. strategy minded and focused players like speaker. great stuff.

I agree with it too. But then Ruth came along and made "Home Run" Baker look like kindergarten. And he saved the game from the negativity surrounding the likes of Hal Chase and the 8 men out. Some great ballplayers there, to be sure, but the corruption surrounding them was something the game could not endure. Do I think Ruth is overrated? Absolutely not! Look at what he accomplished in comparison to any of his peers, and how beloved a figure he was. I wish I could chase girls all night, eat a package of hotdogs boiled in a clubhouse coffee urn, washed down with 2 quarts of beer, and then go out and play at that level, consistently. Heck, even the haters loved him, all over the world.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Ruth certainly took maximum advantage of the demise of the dead ball era, and opened owners' eyes regarding the popularity of home runs, but Ray Chapman took the fastball that drove a steak in its heart:

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yes absolutely. the black sox scandal was on the precipice; ruth was the beginning of the new age, but the encounter between chapman and mays was the force and moment that changed the game forever.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I agree with it too. But then Ruth came along and made "Home Run" Baker look like kindergarten. And he saved the game from the negativity surrounding the likes of Hal Chase and the 8 men out. Some great ballplayers there, to be sure, but the corruption surrounding them was something the game could not endure. Do I think Ruth is overrated? Absolutely not! Look at what he accomplished in comparison to any of his peers, and how beloved a figure he was. I wish I could chase girls all night, eat a package of hotdogs boiled in a clubhouse coffee urn, washed down with 2 quarts of beer, and then go out and play at that level, consistently. Heck, even the haters loved him, all over the world.

totally right. the game was on the edge of being 'black marked' forever by fans and an american culture which trusted the upright posture of the sport. it could no longer be denied that players like zimmerman and chase; even cobb and speaker had a hand in a much larger political situation which also rested at the feet of the ever more greedy owners and the growing divide between the lived reality of being a ballplayer and people who made big money off the game. ie the federal league split + owners like ebbets charging a then unheard of $5 a ticket for world series games!!

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Ruth certainly took maximum advantage of the demise of the dead ball era, and opened owners' eyes regarding the popularity of home runs, but Ray Chapman took the fastball that drove a steak in its heart:

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But remember, there are folks out there that think, back in 1920, or 1930, 40, 50, 60, or 1970 for that matter, pitchers were throwing slow pitch softball. That only the pitchers of today could throw 100 mph, which, incidentally, is about what it takes to make the "zzzzzz" noise or The Big Train sound produced by Walter Johnson. What nonsense!

[GeoPoto]

I'll go again if that's allowed. It would be silly to downplay what Jackie went through/did, but we need to remember he didn't exactly integrate baseball. Jackie integrated the National League. The immediate emergence of a second elite black player (and Campy, etc.), quickly cemented the progress Jackie started.

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[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I'll go again if that's allowed. It would be silly to downplay what Jackie went through/did, but we need to remember he didn't exactly integrate baseball. Jackie integrated the National League. The immediate emergence of a second elite black player (and Campy, etc.), quickly cemented the progress Jackie started.

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great choice. one of the first cards i got when i was getting back into the hobby was the '51 bowman doby. the image to me is utterly beautiful. i don't know if there's a card in that set that surpasses the power of that 51 doby to me.

[Casey2296]

-
Amos Rusie. In 1893, the National League moved the mound from 50 feet to 60 feet and 6 inches, in part because of the increased velocity of pitchers like Rusie, Cy Young, and Jouett Meekin.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Rusie card yet, maybe one of our members could post one.
-

[JollyElm]

Rickey Frickin' Henderson!

I'm working on another SGC reveal video, and one of the cards in it is a Rickey Rookie (say that five times fast) and it made me remember how he took an absolute chainsaw to the way the game was played before him with his terroristic baserunning.
Quite literally a game-changer from the moment he appeared in the majors, I feel lucky to have been around to witness his career.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Rickey Frickin' Henderson!

I'm working on another SGC reveal video, and one of the cards in it is a Rickey Rookie (say that five times fast) and it made me remember how he took an absolute chainsaw to the way the game was played before him with his terroristic baserunning.
Quite literally a game-changer from the moment he appeared in the majors, I feel lucky to have been around to witness his career.

Absolutely! + a million on this!

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Rickey Frickin' Henderson!

I'm working on another SGC reveal video, and one of the cards in it is a Rickey Rookie (say that five times fast) and it made me remember how he took an absolute chainsaw to the way the game was played before him with his terroristic baserunning.
Quite literally a game-changer from the moment he appeared in the majors, I feel lucky to have been around to witness his career.

1 of 1.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Rickey Frickin' Henderson!

I'm working on another SGC reveal video, and one of the cards in it is a Rickey Rookie (say that five times fast) and it made me remember how he took an absolute chainsaw to the way the game was played before him with his terroristic baserunning.
Quite literally a game-changer from the moment he appeared in the majors, I feel lucky to have been around to witness his career.

wish i had gotten a chance to see him play in his prime darren! really glad he made it to the mets toward the end of his career. exactly. there's a before and after rickey henderson on the basepaths.

[oldjudge]

Not sure why Maris changed the soul of the game? He was a good player who hit a lot of homers during an expansion season in a stadium with a short right field porch. This isn't Yankee hating--I'm a Yankee fan. I just don't see it.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not sure why Maris changed the soul of the game? He was a good player who hit a lot of homers during an expansion season in a stadium with a short right field porch. This isn't Yankee hating--I'm a Yankee fan. I just don't see it.

oh man. have you read about his story in the 61 homer season and everything he went up against? the emotional, psychological, and spiritual turmoil of that season and facing down the biggest record in baseball history set by the greatest yankee in baseball history while battling one of the greatest yankee sovereign sons in mickey mantle all the while to do it? as an outsider from an immigrant family in a small town in minnesota whom many yankee fans actively set themselves against in the process of breaking that most hallowed record?

its a no brainer to me, but i respect your opinion!

[REG1976]

My choice is Wally Yonamine for Japanese Baseball the first American of Japanese descent born in Olowalu, Hawaii. He was also the first Japanese descent to play Football for the San Fran 49er's in 1947. Wally played for the Salt Lake City Bees in 1950 before he went to Japan, playing American style baseball, that the Japanese were not accustomed to and being a Nisei. Wally Yonamine the only American born Japanese League player to be inducted in the Japanese HOF, along with his accomplishments that changed Baseball in Japan.
1951 Osato Gangu Rookie Card

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by REG1976

My choice is Wally Yonamine for Japanese Baseball the first American of Japanese descent born in Olowalu, Hawaii. He was also the first Japanese descent to play Football for the San Fran 49er's in 1947. Wally played for the Salt Lake City Bees in 1950 before he went to Japan, playing American style baseball, that the Japanese were not accustomed to and being a Nisei. Wally Yonamine the only American born Japanese League player to be inducted in the Japanese HOF, along with his accomplishments that changed Baseball in Japan.
1951 Osato Gangu Rookie Card

wow... thanks for sharing this!! wild that he played pro football too. looks like sabr still hasn't written his article yet. hard to believe! thanks for sharing and exposing me and i'm sure other members of our community to such an awesome figure in the game's history. will be doing my research this evening. cheers!

[REG1976]

Originally Posted by dbussell12

wow... thanks for sharing this!! wild that he played pro football too. looks like sabr still hasn't written his article yet. hard to believe! thanks for sharing and exposing me and i'm sure other members of our community to such an awesome figure in the game's history. will be doing my research this evening. cheers!

I have the book by Rob K. Fitts "Wally Yonamine, The Man Who Changed Japanese Baseball"

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by jingram058

But remember, there are folks out there that think, back in 1920, or 1930, 40, 50, 60, or 1970 for that matter, pitchers were throwing slow pitch softball.

What's funny is that today's MLB stars can't hit crackerjack women's softball pitchers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRK7Yh3kRZk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Not sure why Maris changed the soul of the game? He was a good player who hit a lot of homers during an expansion season in a stadium with a short right field porch. This isn't Yankee hating--I'm a Yankee fan.

The detail that you're a Yankees fan is painfully obvious. Yankee fans were the ones most opposed to anybody (but perhaps Mickey Mantle) breaking Babe Ruth's record.

Originally Posted by dbussell12

oh man. have you read about his story in the 61 homer season and everything he went up against? the emotional, psychological, and spiritual turmoil of that season and facing down the biggest record in baseball history set by the greatest yankee in baseball history while battling one of the greatest yankee sovereign sons in mickey mantle all the while to do it? as an outsider from an immigrant family in a small town in minnesota whom many yankee fans actively set themselves against in the process of breaking that most hallowed record?

its a no brainer to me....

Agreed! Can you imagine the majority of your home team fans cheering against you? Talk about a no class display by Yankees fans.

[ASF123]

I’ll just leave this here and duck the rotten fruit from the haters…

Edit: Ok, I guess “heroic” probably doesn’t apply.

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[robw1959]

I'll add another "sleeper," and it's Willie Mays! Those who know the history of baseball know that nobody, but nobody packed them in like Willie in park after park, day games and night games, home and away. His incredible fielding prowess combined with his hitting made him the ultimate 5-tool player, and brought record attendances everywhere he went. Baseball was already on the map, but Mays took the game to another level.

And I still think baseball is going to issue an annual award in his name some day.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by ASF123

I’ll just leave this here and duck the rotten fruit from the haters…

Edit: Ok, I guess “heroic” probably doesn’t apply.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

wow this is a great pick and deeply true. maybe actually the originator of today's game as we know it.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I'll add another "sleeper," and it's Willie Mays! Those who know the history of baseball know that nobody, but nobody packed them in like Willie in park after park, day games and night games, home and away. His incredible fielding prowess combined with his hitting made him the ultimate 5-tool player, and brought record attendances everywhere he went. Baseball was already on the map, but Mays took the game to another level.

And I still think baseball is going to issue an annual award in his name some day.

absolutely!

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by dbussell12

wow this is a great pick and deeply true. maybe actually the originator of today's game as we know it.

He certainly played a huge role in bringing increased rationality to analysis and decision-making in baseball. But he was a part of a long history of (almost universally marginalized) efforts to do so. “The Numbers Game” by Alan Schwarz is a great chronicle of some of Beane’s (and Bill James’) intellectual predecessors. Highly recommended if you haven’t read it.

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by ASF123

He certainly played a huge role in bringing increased rationality to analysis and decision-making in baseball. But he was a part of a long history of (almost universally marginalized) efforts to do so. “The Numbers Game” by Alan Schwarz is a great chronicle of some of Beane’s (and Bill James’) intellectual predecessors. Highly recommended if you haven’t read it.

will check it out! i enjoy the metric stuff quite a bit. its a great way to create context for what otherwise exists in large part by eye tests to understand the science behind the game. michael hoban's CAWS in relation to bill james' win share has been wonderful to explore lately. cheers!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

If true, that's yet another reason for me to dislike Babe Ruth. I loved the running game played during the dead ball era. That was far more entertaining, action filled baseball than the present swing for the fences game played these days.

I don't disagree that today's game is kinda one-note, but hating on Babe Ruth...



Personally, I think there is nothing more thrilling than to see a player like Ruth step into the box, but the game ebbs and flows based on equipment, stadiums and talent. Look at the running game in the 1970s-1980s, it surpassed the deadball game. Speed demons all over the place because the artificial turf in many stadiums favored speed:

Rickey Henderson
Vince Coleman
Lou Brock
Tim Raines
Joe Morgan
Ron LeFlore
Omar Moreno
Willie Wilson
Davey Lopes
Mickey Rivers

Not a single player stole over 100 bases between 1900 and 1920; over 100 bases were stolen seven times between 1974 and 1988.

[ASF123]

This thread would be blatantly incomplete without mentioning Clemente, for all the obvious reasons. Pick from any of dozens of options for his iconic card.

Also, hat tip to Luis Castro, Armando Marsans, Rafael Almeida, Adolfo Luque, Minnie Miñoso and many others.

Later, Hideo Nomo, Ichiro, etc.

[Zach Wheat]

Cobb. Either you loved him or loved to hate him. Still not sure of who the real Cobb was...

[bk400]

Originally Posted by ASF123

This thread would be blatantly incomplete without mentioning Clemente, for all the obvious reasons. Pick from any of dozens of options for his iconic card.

Also, hat tip to Luis Castro, Armando Marsans, Rafael Almeida, Adolfo Luque, Minnie Miñoso and many others.

Later, Hideo Nomo, Ichiro, etc.

I think you'd have to include Hank Aaron.

Also, Shohei Ohtani's story isn't finished yet, but he's probably done more to popularize MLB in East Asia than anyone else.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Cobb. Either you loved him or loved to hate him.

Love him! He played the game as it should be played a couple of generations prior to Pete Rose.

Moreover Cobb and Babe Ruth had an intense professional rivalry plus personal dislike. I'm firmly in the Ty Cobb camp.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I'll add another "sleeper," and it's Willie Mays! Those who know the history of baseball know that nobody, but nobody packed them in like Willie in park after park, day games and night games, home and away. His incredible fielding prowess combined with his hitting made him the ultimate 5-tool player, and brought record attendances everywhere he went. Baseball was already on the map, but Mays took the game to another level.

And I still think baseball is going to issue an annual award in his name some day.

Pretty sure we have the Willie Mays award issued every year.

It used to be called the World Series MVP.

Whether that's the right choice is a matter of debate. But that's why we have net54!

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by bk400

I think you'd have to include Hank Aaron.

Also, Shohei Ohtani's story isn't finished yet, but he's probably done more to popularize MLB in East Asia than anyone else.

Totally agree with both. In fact, Ohtani is the only ultra-modern player whose rookie card I bought just for historical posterity.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Totally agree with both. In fact, Ohtani is the only ultra-modern player whose rookie card I bought just for historical posterity.

I agree with this as well, even if he is a Yankee, er, Dodger (since the Dodgers became the Yankees, it's easy to become confused).

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I agree with this as well, even if he is a Yankee, er, Dodger (since the Dodgers became the Yankees, it's easy to become confused).

Label me confused as to the Dodgers becoming the Yankees?

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Label me confused as to the Dodgers becoming the Yankees?

So the Yankees under George Steinbrenner were the Evil Empire, buying World Championships. What are the Dodgers doing now? Still confused?

[Leon]

Jackie changed everything in MLB (and a nod to those before him too).

This is a great card of him though I don't own it any longer.

[Bigdaddy]

Curt Flood was the first man who stood up to the owners, challenging the reserve clause which ended up changing the balance of power between the owners and players and having a huge impact on the game.

My favorite Flood card:

[Balticfox]

The problem though is Curt Flood's suit led to the present game of musical chairs when it comes to which player is with what team this year. That is most assuredly not in the interests of the fans and the success of the enterprise of MLB depends upon the fans continuing to support the game.

My vote here goes to Maury Wills though. He reinvigorated the game in 1962 by revitalizing action on the base paths. He opened the door for players such as Lou Brock, Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines, Vince Coleman, etc. whose talents might otherwise have been overlooked. Wills didn't have a Topps card until 1967 though but here are a few Post Cereal and Salada-Junket beauties from 1962:

(Not mine.)

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Curt Flood was the first man who stood up to the owners, challenging the reserve clause which ended up changing the balance of power between the owners and players and having a huge impact on the game.

My favorite Flood card:

wow -- great choice. yes; this reminds me at first thought of the federal league 1914-15 period as well. there have been several periods in baseball history where this balance of power was most tested; i have to think of the federal league, black sox, and flood as being some really strong examples of levee breaking shifts there.

[Yoda]

How about a card of the new 'juiced-up baseball that ended the Dead Ball Era, thereby changing the momentum of the game itself, which carries on today?

[dbussell12]

Originally Posted by Yoda

How about a card of the new 'juiced-up baseball that ended the Dead Ball Era, thereby changing the momentum of the game itself, which carries on today?

think i saw it on ebay last night...