Memorabilia as an investment

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

I invest in the Market and collect cards as a hobby..

+1 Plus my Memorabilia collection is mainly Wade Boggs. I have easily 40+ Boggs bats and even though they are all different LS models there are just too many to sell at one time without taking a bath on them. Same with cards it is just fun for me. Granted if I see a card/memorabilia WAY below market and I know I have a buyer I will become a short term investor.

[vintagerookies51]

Intentional or not, a lot of the top cards would have made very good investments over the years. I remember PWCC's "Top 500 Index" or whatever that showed how it compared to the S&P 500. I never looked at the details, but I'm assuming it was very cherry picked. Either way, my memories tell me it was pretty common to find low-grade '52 Mantles for 4 figures when I started collecting in 2011 that would go for $30K today. Many other popular cards have also at least tripled over that timeframe.

[BioCRN]

I mean, I don't care about the value of most of the stuff that I only own a single example of because it's not going anywhere.

A $100 investment I made is worth $500 now? Neat, but I'm not selling it because I own it for a reason.

...but let's not pretend some of the biggest names in the hobby, living and dead, aren't collecting green paper as their major hobby focus.

As a hobbyist I'm glad they're out there finding the stuff and bringing it to market.

[Exhibitman]

It is whatever you want to make of it.

As part of an asset class, sports memorabilia is akin to art, coins, rare books, etc. It has a decades-long track record and is bigger than ever, so those who scoff at the idea of it are deluding themselves. I'd prefer that some things and people did not exist; doesn't make it so.

Many here, myself included, would classify themselves as collector-investors. I have my collecting passions (like H815 Adam Hats premiums) but over the last few years I mostly buy with an eye towards either appreciation or flipping. That said, cards are not part of my formal retirement plan. I am big believer in paying yourself first, then taking on riskier endeavors with excess cash once the core needs and plans are funded. I have had a nice little card business as a side hustle for years and as I wind down my law practice I am stepping into that business more and more. I hope to make it a full time gig eventually.

To be perfectly blunt, I (and many other Gen X collectors) got lucky. I bought my cards over the last 35 years because I enjoy them. The price run-up is an unexpected perk. Managing my portfolio of cards is the sort of problem I am happy to have.

[EddieP]

Memoribilia have no intrinsic value — and so unlike stocks, bonds and real estate— do not generate cash. Their value is extrinsic, i.e. based on appearance and/or what it could be sold for, which may not be its intrinsic value.

In the case of vintage cards you have pictures printed on cardboard. The intrinsic value of cardboard is $0. A T206 Honus Wagner sold for $7+ million. It’s extrinsic value is $7,000,000.

In options the greater the extrinsic value the greater the risk.

[Snapolit1]

Issue with memorabilia is the pool of willing buyers is much smaller than cards. You could have the coolest piece of memorabilia and there might be 5-10 people in the world who would ever consider spending $50,000 to buy it. Because of population reports, VCP, etc., cards are more easily monetized.

There was a breathtaking Christy Mathewson auction on Hunt last year. Truly mind boggling stuff. At the live auction it was clear there were only a relative handful of active bidders when stuff hit the big bucks. The old adage is you only need 2 active bidders to go nuts, but once one of those guys has one of them, the auction next time around might look very different.

[Exhibitman]

You are confusing cash flow with value. Nothing you can invest in has intrinsic value. Income producing real estate is great until you get a deadbeat tenant who digs in like a tick and has to be evicted. Or 60% vacancy rates like we had in office space in recent years. Dividend paying stocks too, until the board decides to cut off the dividends or the company goes tits up. Bonds are great until the debtor declares BK and stops paying.

What does have intrinsic value? Food, shelter, drugs. Stuff you can use or consume. The rest is just value storage or mechanisms that produce the stuff you use.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You are confusing cash flow with value. Nothing you can invest in has intrinsic value. Income producing real estate is great until you get a deadbeat tenant who digs in like a tick and has to be evicted. Or 60% vacancy rates like we had in office space in recent years. Dividend paying stocks too, until the board decides to cut off the dividends or the company goes tits up. Bonds are great until the debtor declares BK and stops paying.

What does have intrinsic value? Food, shelter, drugs. Stuff you can use or consume. The rest is just value storage or mechanisms that produce the stuff you use.

I suggest you read Security Analysis by Benjamin Graham.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by EddieP

Memoribilia have no intrinsic value — and so unlike stocks, bonds and real estate— do not generate cash. Their value is extrinsic, i.e. based on appearance and/or what it could be sold for, which may not be its intrinsic value.

In the case of vintage cards you have pictures printed on cardboard. The intrinsic value of cardboard is $0. A T206 Honus Wagner sold for $7+ million. It’s extrinsic value is $7,000,000.

In options the greater the extrinsic value the greater the risk.

I used to own that Wagner, do you not think the person that sold it for 7+ bought is an "investment" or to keep in his collection long term??? I can assure it generated them a very large return.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by sb1

I used to own that Wagner, do you not think the person that sold it for 7+ bought is an "investment" or to keep in his collection long term??? I can assure it generated them a very large return.

I don’t know. You have to ask him. For all we know in hundred years the whole card collecting business could be viewed as another Tulip mania.

[Fred]

I don't look at any of the cards or other memorabilia I collect as assets. All I know is that at some point I need to put a document together telling the family what to do with it all after I kick the bucket. I'm sure they're going to be a little surprised.

For those that have been doing this for a long time, I'm sure the stuff is worth a lot more now than when it was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago but I'm guessing not many people were thinking, "hey, this stuff is going to be worth bank in 2, 3, or 4 decades." If they did, I'm sure the valuations today are well beyond what they were thinking.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by EddieP

I don’t know. You have to ask him. For all we know in hundred years the whole card collecting business could be viewed as another Tulip mania.

Manias tend to last just a few years. That one, the Nasdaq in the late '90s, the junk wax boom of '89-'92. Or even quicker, like the recent pandemic boom in collectibles.

Sportscards (especially vintage) have had a large, mostly stable market for at least 40 years now. I'd hope that bodes well for the business not being a flash in the pan.