When and how do you decide to have photos PSA-certified?

Johnphotoman · #1 04-04-2025, 07:03 PM

I agree with Exhibitman on most points- but I believe we can establish a timeline for when the photo was created�printed as a print. Ok we mainly agree that the image on the Jackie Robinson photo is from 1947, the possible year it was captured.

The question is, when was the photo made? (printed as a print) Therefore the question becomes can we use deductive reasoning�use logic to arrive at a logical conclusion as to when the print was made? That is to say establish a reasonable date the photo was created.

The known facts:

1- Photos with names on them just like the ones I have have been auctioned as Type 1, 2 and 3. We have one on this post: (Lot# 329: 1940's Grover Cleveland Alexander Type 2 News Service Photo.

What we know about the Grover Cleveland auction: The auction house describes the photo this way: �Mid-1920's image of Hall of Fame pitcher Grover Cleveland Alexander at the Cubs spring training facility on Catalina Island in California. Though the image hails from the 1920's this particular 6.5" x 8.5" print was developed during the 1940's and served as a "proof" for a company known as "National Sports Photos, Inc." National Sports Photos offered 8" x 10" glossy photo reproductions via mail order, complete with the athletes name added in a handwritten style.�

2-National Sports Photos offered 8" x 10" glossy photo reproductions via mail order, complete with the athletes name added in a handwritten style starting in the 1940s. This style of writing on the photos matches the style on the photos I have. We can then conclude the photos I have are National Sports Photos.

3- All the photos I have are of the same style and match the Grover Cleveland Alexander photo except the size. Many of the images on the photos I have are seen on different Baseball cards, Bond Bread, Berk Ross, Exhibit style cards, Mini strip cards (R423), just to name a few. These baseball cards match the photos I have, many down to the names on the cards, which are an exact match- Bond Bread cards come to mind.

4- Bond Bread cards were issued in 1947, does this mean that the photos were around then as well. Since the images are the same on the photos and the Bond Bread cards, would it be reasonable to conclude the images on the photos were made the same time as the 1947 Bond Bread cards.

5- Two examples of the photos I have that match Bond Bread cards are: Ted Willams and Johnny Van Der Meer. The two examples are on the cover of the National Sports Photos- catalog. See post #6. There is no date on the letter from the National Sports Photos malling. But we do see that the mailing for National Sports Photos cost 4 � cents to mail. We see a 3 cent stamp and 1 � cent stamp. But I notice the 3 cent stamp was - a special commemorative stamp: Issued in 1947.

The U.S. 3 Cents stamp-The Doctor # 949 was issued on June 9, 1947, to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the founding of the American Medical Association. "The Doctor" stamp was sold for approximately 10 years from its initial release in 1947 until the introduction of the 4-cent stamp in 1958. We then can reasonably believe that the mailing for the National Sports Photos- catalog was issued circa 1947 - 1957. Advertising some photos from 1947, as seen on the cover of the catalog.

6- Information suggests many of the photos were made with names on them circa 1947, because again-we see the same images on the Bond Bread cards that came out in 1947. We then can believe that the photos I have were made 1947-1958. Knowing all the information would it not be reasonable to believe the Jackie Robinson photo could have been made in 1947 and no later than 1957. Conclusion the photos I have were taken 1930-1950, the photos were made (created) in 1947-1950s.

The information also suggests the Jackie Robinson photo has a good chance of being made the year it was taken 1947. Because it does match photos we can say were made in 1947, ie Ted Willams and John Van Der Meer. The odds are in fact better than the print being made in the 1950s. So how can anyone say what Type photo it is. Why would anyone judge the photo of Jackie Robinson on what Type it was, or any of the photos I have? John

Johnphotoman · #2 04-05-2025, 11:09 AM

I guess the question should be to you as collectors: Find value in the photos I have? Or value in the type of photos -they would be classified as. John

Exhibitman · #3 04-05-2025, 11:39 AM

The dating argument still fails for lack of evidence. Unless you have some sort of extrinsic proof of date, like a mailing envelope, you can't conclude to enough of a certainty that the photo was printed in any specific time period, or how long it was printed for. Of course, you can narrow it down somewhat when it comes to identified items, e.g., if you know that a company made an item and then went down the toilet in a specific year, their products are pretty much capped at that year at the latest. But with an active company trying to make money, not cater to us nerds, anything else is speculation and is very likely wrong because they used their intellectual property as long as it paid. I'll give you a concrete example: the designation of Salutations Exhibit cards as a 1939-1946 issue.

The truth is that some Salutations designs were issued in 1939 but some were issued as late as 1960. ESCO re-used the same art for a decade or more, retiring a design when the player retired. Ted Williams, for example, retired after the 1960 season and his Salutations card (the no #9 showing version) can be found on uncut sheets of Exhibit cards with Rocky Colavito as a Tiger. Colavito was traded from Cleveland to Detroit on April 17, 1960. The Colavito card in the Detroit uni cannot predate the trade, so the Williams card on the same sheet was made after April 17, 1960. The Williams card was reprinted for at least 14 years after the purported end of its print run, which is why it is easy to find a high-grade example. That does not stop sellers from offering the card as a 1939-46 card. They, and many of the public, assume that all Salutations Williams cards were made in the 1939-46 timeframe because some Salutations Williams cards were made between 1939 and 1946 and someone, somewhere, sometime (possibly Woody Scharf when he was doing his first work on the classification of these cards) decided on those dates, the guides picked it up, the TPGs then followed suit, etc. This plagues a lot of what we researchers do. Look at the kerfluffle over the definitive dating of the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait. People with vested interests in that not being his first MLB card (like those with massive $ into the 1949 Leaf) tried their best to ignore facts.

Your Robinson photo is freakin' awesome but from where I sit, there isn't convincing proof of when it was made. And just to prove I have skin in this game, here's my Musial:

I'd love to get a date on it, but I don't have the evidence. I do know that it came out of a collection with a Ruben Gomez in the same format. Gomez pitched for the Giants starting in 1953, so that sets the baseline on when his photo could have been made. The Musial has the same image as the 1947 Bond Bread but no proof it was printed in 1947.

Johnphotoman · #4 04-05-2025, 12:23 PM

Exhibitman- great way to sum-up the situation with the photos. And yes at the same time - that is what is so frustrating. You and I have photos that match Bond Bread cards that came out in 1947, you would think that the photos came out at the same-time, if not first, but some of the Bond Bread images were on cards circa 1940. How can anyone put a date on the photos?

Yes we can look at the photo paper and maybe put an age base on that, but as you have said it is not an accurate date, it is a best guess situation.

But I ask the question, do collectors find the photos I and you have valuable, just in the photo alone, or do they look for value in what Type the photo is: Type,1,2 or 3. John

Exhibitman · #5 04-05-2025, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

But I ask the question, do collectors find the photos I and you have valuable, just in the photo alone, or do they look for value in what Type the photo is: Type,1,2 or 3. John

Yes. Depends on who you ask. Depends on why they are buying. I happen to collect team issues, publicity photos, etc. I prefer those to regular photos. If I have the choice between a 'Type I' 1958 photo of Jim Brown and his 1958 'Type III' team issue for my PC, same pose, I would prefer to own the latter:

If you include a nice snapshot in the blend, for my PC I would naturally go there because it is the closest thing to a card.

If I am trying to make money and the cost to me is equal, I am going for the most valuable. At this point, it is the Type I photo. That may change over time. If the relative values of a team issue and a Type I from the same year of the same player move closer to equal, I may opt for the TI as an investment in the hope that I can buy more of them and they will outperform the Type I over time. If I knew the answer I would be buying, not sharing the information. I haven't a clue, so I just collect what I like and hope it works out. Gabby agrees:

lumberjack · #6 04-05-2025, 04:54 PM

The market will determine the value of your photos. As to the classification, what we are discussing is beyond Types. Someone mentioned earlier, "souvenir," which is very appropriate. This would cover team issue, Jay Publications and the photos with script "autographs."

Photos used for advertising, like the Rawlings 8x10s from 60 years ago....They should simply be classified as "advertising."

There was a Ruth photo, classified as a Type II earlier in this thread. The photo is perfect, that's the only way you can describe it, but its value is diminished, quite unfairly, because of when it was printed. I don't get it.

Once again, the market will eventually shake all of this out.

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