1969 topps white letters….is it worth the chase?

[Elberson]

I brought a complete 69 set and working on a couple upgrades for it. Down to 3. I decided to pick up some E/V’s for the set but haven’t decided if I wanted to do the white letters……(minus the mantle lol) I think there are 24 or so of them

What would you guys do or did?

should I?
Or just no?



Updated…….im going for the WL’er…..minus mantle

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Elberson

What would you guys do or did?

should I?
Or just no?

.

[butchie_t]

Heck yes,

A fun subset to go after.

[Kevvyg1026]

Fyi

69_Series_5_panel_white.jpg

[ALR-bishop]

I did them, but glad to have gotten the Mantle a long time back

[JollyElm]

It's funny, I just touched on this while making an SGC Reveal video, because I had sent a pair of them in.

They used to be magical, treasured finds, but if you actually look up sold prices for PSA 6s or 7s of say, Casanova, they're less than $30!
That was entirely shocking to me. Shouldn't these rarities be more 'valuable'???
Big bummer.

But to answer your question (as a variation nut), "Hell yes!!!!"

[G1911]

I skipped them, about the only Topps variation I’ve skipped. The problem to me is that, while 100% legit, it’s so easy to take a yellow letter and remove the yellow to create a white. Not a big deal when I’m buying a $8 Jose Arcia, but with the Mantle the money incentive and difficulty in identifying a card spot doctored to fade the yellow out of that spot while covering the rest of the card from the light used is just too high considering how easy it is to fake. I have a few of them, but I’m skipping the full set, which does feel wrong for my master runs.

[Harliduck]

It's funny...I've put more 1969 sets together than any other year (my favorite Topps set) and I've always avoided the White Letters. I would get my usual Clendenon, Nettles, Rodriquez, and Dalrymple and such variations and call it good. Then I found a couple White Letters in a common box at a shop while traveling a year or so together and decided to finally finish that out. So I now have all but the Mantle in my master set...and one day will get the Mantle to complete. So yeah, if you don't now, one day you will...

[Kutcher55]

Yes. I think the white letter variations look great and nicer than the yellow letters. Just be careful with the Mantle, as I think it's possible to create a white letter version by stenciling his name and putting it under a light for a long time to fade out the yellow.

[savedfrommyspokes]

In most cases, it is easy to determine if a card has been sun-faded to create a "white letter" version. With the green backgrounds, the green will appear blue (as seen below). The brown backgrounds will appear more purple.

The 10 or so red background cards may be tougher to tell as red is a primary color, but red does typically fade faster than blue but not as quick as yellow. While I have not seen a faded red version (yet, in my west facing window now),
my speculation is that the red background will have a dull/faded appearance.

I would not let the possibility of sun fading deter you, just apply common sense/caution when considering any of these WL cards.

Yes, this subset is well-worth the chase.

[raineybt]

Figure I might as well hop on this thread - as a Senators collector, I've been working to get all variations, including '56 white / grey backs, '58 letter variations, '62 green tint, etc. For some reason, this white letter set has been one of the hardest to close out, with some of the widest spreads of costs.

It has been surprising that the slightly higher quality (PSA 6-8) examples, outside of Mantle, can go for $20 or $30, when you find them at shows or at buy it now prices that are probably 50% above comps. I'm not sure if that's simply an imbalance of demand between collectors not knowing about these variations and / or not caring, but its clear that supply believes the value of this set is significantly higher than what ongoing market clearing prices seem to indicate.

All of that said - 1969 Topps #441b Dennis Higgins White Letters is one of the last 3 Senators cards I need to close out every VAR from '49 to '74. If anyone has one they are willing to sell, or would be willing to trade, let me know!

[Kutcher55]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

In most cases, it is easy to determine if a card has been sun-faded to create a "white letter" version. With the green backgrounds, the green will appear blue (as seen below). The brown backgrounds will appear more purple.

The 10 or so red background cards may be tougher to tell as red is a primary color, but red does typically fade faster than blue but not as quick as yellow. While I have not seen a faded red version (yet, in my west facing window now),
my speculation is that the red background will have a dull/faded appearance.

I would not let the possibility of sun fading deter you, just apply common sense/caution when considering any of these WL cards.

Yes, this subset is well-worth the chase.

True, but you could avoid making the rest of the card (including the button) fade if you did a very careful stencil of just the letters themselves and cover the other 99% of the card. Not that I would bother engaging in such subterfuge, but the WL Mantle comes with a pretty big premium and I suspect this has been deployed before.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

True, but you could avoid making the rest of the card (including the button) fade if you did a very careful stencil of just the letters themselves and cover the other 99% of the card. Not that I would bother engaging in such subterfuge, but the WL Mantle comes with a pretty big premium and I suspect this has been deployed before.

I would be astonished if a scammer would waste their time on such a detailed endeavor just to net out a $30-40 WL card. Most of the Mantle WL cards are graded, although that does not mean PSA will catch such detailed work.

[butchie_t]

This thread needs a WL Mantle.

Here is mine. Beat and bent but mine.

[ALR-bishop]

https://baseballcardvariationsguideb...23/1969-topps/

https://baseballcardvariationsguideb...9-toppsw-1.pdf

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by raineybt

All of that said - 1969 Topps #441b Dennis Higgins White Letters is one of the last 3 Senators cards I need to close out every VAR from '49 to '74. If anyone has one they are willing to sell, or would be willing to trade, let me know!

What are the other two?

[ALR-bishop]

And do you have a list of all the Senator variations you are seeking or have through those years ?

[Zach Wheat]

Absolutely I would go for the white letter variations.

[raineybt]

The other two are the 1956 Harmon Killebrew white back and the 1952 Frank Campos black star variation. I'm 50/50 on whether I consider the '52 Campos partial border as a true variation or a printing error, but may end up making my list.

I pull most of the variations off TCDB, where I actually found most of the broader subsets I referenced. Primary are the following:

Back Variations
'52 Topps Red / Black backs
'53 Topps White / Black bios
'56 Topps Gray / White backs
'59 Topps Dark / Light backs
'60 Topps Gray / White backs

Letter / Color Variations
'58 Topps White / Yellow team name
'62 Topps Green Tints
'69 Topps White Letters

While not variants, I'm also working my way through the O-Pee-Chee and Venezuelan sets as well.

Originally Posted by toppcat

What are the other two?

[ALR-bishop]

Thanks Brian. While I have I have the Campos black star, a partial black star and a partial missing front border, I would view them as scarce print defects. But the hobby has long classified the black star as a variation and it is included in most master checklists for the 52 set

[rich699]

PM

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Thanks Brian. While I have I have the Campos black star, a partial black star and a partial missing front border, I would view them as scarce print defects. But the hobby has long classified the black star as a variation and it is included in most master checklists for the 52 set

Agree that however the variations occurred, the hobby accepts them as legit variations for the master set collectors

[raineybt]

I find myself constantly torn from a hobby standpoint on what's a "true" variation and what's a print defect. The 1960 Faye Throneberry "Yankees variation" is to be my litmus test of sorts. These were clearly created due to proof sheets that were caught and fixed before the full print run was put to press and issued. This card therefore becomes an interesting proof card, but becomes part of the collection related to other ephemera of interest, not part of an official set (or more importantly for someone that collects for completeness, not something I'm missing to close out a set).

How I've decided to generally put a card on the side of VAR vs. printing defects is what the grading companies will classify. Its very ironic given that I'm by and large anti-grading (too subjective, wild conflicts of interest, cost, speed - I can go on), but I also recognize that's where the hobby has gone. The PGCs recognizing and slabbing a variant makes it to me "part of the set", where they generally put "Authentic" for samples, proofs, etc (or won't grade them at all).

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Thanks Brian. While I have I have the Campos black star, a partial black star and a partial missing front border, I would view them as scarce print defects. But the hobby has long classified the black star as a variation and it is included in most master checklists for the 52 set

[ALR-bishop]

The grading companies used to follow what the SCD Standard Catalog and or Becketts did in terms of variations but that obviously does not happen anymore.

Topps proofs tend to be blank bank, but the 60 Throneberry, as well as the Hadley and Cimoli have finished backs. Still I agree with you about not including it on master lists

From Bob Lemke's blog blog

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awri...HRoRUgHyqk.mU-

From Dave Hornish's great blog and article by Olberman
But if Olberman is right they would meet the definition of a variation held by some.. card changed by the manufacturer after printing started


https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrF...ciWJ1.Ww_SlUA-

[Elberson]

Ok….the rabbit hole I will go than…..

2 down……

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Elberson

...but haven’t decided if I wanted to do the white letters……I think there are 24 or so of them

What would you guys do or did?

should I?
Or just no?

Are the 24 white lettered cards randomly distributed or are they some defined subset? If they're just hodgepodge random numbers, my vote would be "No!".

[ALR-bishop]

The white letter versions are included in master set lists. If you don't care about master sets or your OCD does not require "completion" of the 69 set there is no reason to pursue I guess .

You can then instead start on the 1969 "Super" set

[Balticfox]

Be nice to see at least a couple white letter variants beside the regular cards for comparison's sake.

[ALR-bishop]

2014 article on them

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awri...I8P9jsMC7HbKs-

[Elberson]

Two more down……18 more to go…..but no mantle lol

[Elberson]

Ok I guess I’ll chase the rest….3 more picked up and I’m up to 7 now

[Elberson]

2 more down…..13 to go

[sb1]

As a person who's first baseball cards were 1969 Topps, I have put a set together along with all the inserts, wrapper and box, and the other misc errors/corrections but am still not complete on the White letters. Like many I pick them up on the cheap when they randomly appear, but have not applied myself to get completion, and of course I don't have the Mantle.

Perhaps this thread will spur me on to finish.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

The grading companies used to follow what the SCD Standard Catalog and or Becketts did in terms of variations but that obviously does not happen anymore.

Topps proofs tend to be blank bank, but the 60 Throneberry, as well as the Hadley and Cimoli have finished backs. Still I agree with you about not including it on master lists

From Bob Lemke's blog blog

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awri...HRoRUgHyqk.mU-

From Dave Hornish's great blog and article by Olberman
But if Olberman is right they would meet the definition of a variation held by some.. card changed by the manufacturer after printing started


https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrF...ciWJ1.Ww_SlUA-

I feel like these three are the first chase cards in a way.

[Elberson]

1 more down……12 to go

[butchie_t]

Mr Moeller is in very nice shape.

I just looked at Mantle WL's on eBay. I'll never again question my decision to buy the one I did, when I did.

At today's prices, I would NEVER be able to buy one.

[JollyElm]

Knowing that Mantles will always keep going up and up in value, I was happy to land this one when I did a long while back.
Just the tiniest bit of the black going out of bounds on back...

1969MantleWL500frontback.jpg