BST etiquette am I wrong

[oldjudge]

I don't see anything wrong with the way either party handled the transaction, just an unfortunate result for Jonathan. The only thing apparent to me is that given the level of interest and the emotions involved the seller apparently sold the card too cheaply.

[Cody77]

I used a recent comparison for sold item at auction and even went $100 over that. But, realizing how quickly I was messaged several times, I probably could have held out for more or removed and relisted higher. But, I chose not to do that and honor my list price. But, he left a comment and vanished from contact for several hours. I reached out with a message to confirm the details and that he was good with everything and in that same message told him I had a lot of interest in the item already and to please respond quickly. He says he was out to dinner in his forum post. If that’s the case, why not comment, then directly message me letting me know he would be busy and get back to me soon. Then I would have held it for him. But he only commented. Leaving me to be the one to respond to him directly. That just isn’t how I do business. If you have interest, then show it. If I’m an interested buyer I contact the seller directly and confirm my interest and would explain why I wouldn’t be able to respond for 5 hours rather than rely on the seller to contact me. I made an attempt to contact him and confirm. I shouldn’t have even had to do that much if he wanted the item. Even in my post I stated “contact me directly”. Then for him to threaten to sue me and go to Leon and also make a forum post to try to make me out to be in the wrong when he made no attempt to let me know why he wouldn’t be able to respond for hours. I had to ask him to stop messaging me as he kept sending those types of messages threatening action until I just had to block him from continuing to message me. Very childish behavior that could have been handled much better overall. But I feel that I handled my end as best I could with what I was given. Even with him continuing to message me after I asked him to stop, I didn’t try to take any action against him and simply blocked him. Like an adult.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I certainly don't condone any threats, it's just a card, whatever, move on. But I think most of us, at least of a certain generation, would have not expected Jonathan to respond immediately and would have taken from that just that he was offline and would respond when he was back online. In the device era people seem to have an expectation of instant communication/gratification which, just speaking for myself, is foreign.

[Cody77]

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

[Carter08]

I’ll take the Jackson

[nolemmings]

Water under the bridge at this point, but why not state in the original listing that prices are net to seller? It was already stated shipping was included, so presumably he gave thought to the terms of the transaction. The so-called undue delay was unnecessary.

[Vintage Vern]

Well, to be fair, this thread started at 9:53 am by the would be buyer, and it took the seller until 2:12 pm to respond.

Honestly I think some rules may need to be applied to BST for as many issues as there's been lately.

To me I think the initial sale should be handled on the original post page, and details worked out via private message after winner is declared in that post by time-line. It leaves no room for people on either side for questioning the transaction results. Have a mandatory deadline for a follow up to work out the details of transaction, and then go to the next person if it falls through. Also bidders can then be penalized, and seller can ban them if they choose. It also has an effect on bad sellers if they're playing dirty.

Note not saying either of these two are what I'm pointing towards.

Obviously, hiding in the shadows of private messages isn't working for either sides lately. I'm sure it may be the minority, but it sure is getting more frequent. These items aren't easy to come by, so I think that brings out more emotions if something or someone thinks they're getting the shaft.

I'd say the honor system may be in need of some guidelines or rules. Etiquette is different for many. Leon, when I asked, said it should be done in two places. One on board, and by DM. Only 1 poster said I'll take it on board, and another said pm sent. Outside of that it was all private, and left a wide open door for complaints.

I find fault in both parties for not being totally responsive on their own ends, and that left room for errors.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

+1 The best way to do it

[Carter08]

First person to commit to sending cash should get it. Too many people flak out at the last minute or want the price but only if that’s with fee protections included. This is within reason of course. Don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer on this one. Buyer who missed out has a right to feel slighted but I don’t think the seller should be condemned either.

[gregndodgers]

My two cents from a contract law perspective. It appears to me that an important (I.e. “material”) payment term was not included in the seller’s initial BST post. Hence, his initial post was not an offer (which must include all material terms) that could be accepted (to form an actual agreement) with a simple “I will take it.” So seller is free to negotiate with anyone he wants, and sell to the first buyer able to satisfy all material terms. In other words, seller has no obligation to wait for any potential buyers to get back to him.

With all that said, there is a lot of confusion because contract law principles are not being followed on this board. I tried to warn some with my posts in that other thread. For example, some here believe the words “I will take it” seals the deal and binds the parties. That’s not always the case.

The key is the wording on the seller’s initial post. Does it leave out any material terms? If so, it’s not an offer. It’s an invitation to negotiate, and the buyer who is fastest to complete the deal gets the prize.

EDIT: for the layman, a term is “material” in a contract when it’s a condition that if not met, is a deal breaker for either party.

[Republicaninmass]

Any succesful lawsuits against ebay sellers and their "pricing mistakes"? If so, it could lead to a precedent, without it, I doubt anyone would feel obligated to keep their word, even if over a few lousy bucks.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

My two cents from a contract law perspective. It appears to me that an important (I.e. “material”) payment term was not included in the seller’s initial BST post. Hence, his initial post was not an offer (which must include all material terms) that could be accepted (to form an actual agreement) with a simple “I will take it.” So seller is free to negotiate with anyone he wants, and sell to the first buyer able to satisfy all material terms. In other words, seller has no obligation to wait for any potential buyers to get back to him.

With all that said, there is a lot of confusion because contract law principles are not being followed on this board. I tried to warn some with my posts in that other thread. For example, some here believe the words “I will take it” seals the deal and binds the parties. That’s not always the case.

The key is the wording on the seller’s initial post. Does it leave out any material terms? If so, it’s not an offer. It’s an invitation to negotiate, and the buyer who is fastest to complete the deal gets the prize.

EDIT: for the layman, a term is “material” in a contract when it’s a condition that if not met, is a deal breaker for either party.

You should post these legal critiques directly in BST threads. “This transaction between hobby friends violates contract law principles!” Cue Debbie Downer and the muted trombone.

[Cody77]

To me, has nothing to do with generational. If you have interest in something, show it. My post asked to contact me directly, which he did not. His comment also said “if still available”. I already had people contacting me, he wasn’t the first. So why should I wait for him, when he was like the fifth? I hadn’t received confirmation from the others and had given them time. I finally got confirmation from one of the earlier ones (which I noted in my message to him that others were already interested, but I technically hadn’t made the sell yet). But to me, as with any generation, a deal isn’t complete until there is an agreement between parties. I got a notification of interest before his comment and I let him know that in my message. Someone who had interest before him was able to contact me back to confirm before he could, so I did the right thing and sold to that person. Jonathan wasn’t first, was messaged to let him know he wasn’t first and I just wanted confirmation before selling. Had me messaged and explained his absence and response time then I would have accepted that as confirmation of his agreement and held it for him until he got back.

I’ve never done a deal with him before, I have no rapport with him. So how was I to know how serious he was? I made an effort to reach out and let him know there was obviously other interested and a timely response would be needed to secure it. He didn’t do that. Not sure how I’m in the wrong in any of this. Seems like an open and shut case to be honest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

To me, has nothing to do with generational. If you have interest in something, show it. My post asked to contact me directly, which he did not. His comment also said “if still available”. I already had people contacting me, he wasn’t the first. So why should I wait for him, when he was like the fifth? I hadn’t received confirmation from the others and had given them time. I finally got confirmation from one of the earlier ones (which I noted in my message to him that others were already interested, but I technically hadn’t made the sell yet). But to me, as with any generation, a deal isn’t complete until there is an agreement between parties. I got a notification of interest before his comment and I let him know that in my message. Someone who had interest before him was able to contact me back to confirm before he could, so I did the right thing and sold to that person. Jonathan wasn’t first, was messaged to let him know he wasn’t first and I just wanted confirmation before selling. Had me messaged and explained his absence and response time then I would have accepted that as confirmation of his agreement and held it for him until he got back.

I’ve never done a deal with him before, I have no rapport with him. So how was I to know how serious he was? I made an effort to reach out and let him know there was obviously other interested and a timely response would be needed to secure it. He didn’t do that. Not sure how I’m in the wrong in any of this. Seems like an open and shut case to be honest.

Oy. This is a community. It's based on trust and good faith. Jonathan has 3000 posts and has been here forever. He gets the benefit of a presumption. Why on earth would he say I will take the card if he wasn't serious. That you personally don't know him is irrelevant to how you should behave here.

[Cody77]

I feel like I’m just repeating myself to everyone for no reason. HE WAS NOT THE FIRST TO CONTACT ME ABOUT IT. His comment if it’s still available, then I messaged him letting him know I already had interested parties. So therefore, was letting him know I was in contact with others and would add him to the list in case others fell through. I was confirming he was good with no fee method (many are not due to lack of protection) or if he preferred with fees and if he was willing to cover those fees. I simply sent him a message saying others were interested and if he was ok with doing one of those two things. I never said it was his, or he was first in line, or anything. I reached out and asked him a question and let him know of other interested parties. He never got back to me and the people ahead of him did in fact take the item. So I posted it as sold, before he ever responded back. If the previous potential buyers backed out then it would go to him. But without having an exchange of messages I never got fully into explaining all that. Telling him others were interested I thought was an obvious way to say he wasn’t the first in line and therefore had no claim to the item. At no point did I ever give him the illusion that it was his. But I was going to add him to my list if other interested parties backed out. It happens. I’ve had people not pay or whatever so it goes to the next person. His comment wasn’t the first and a comment before even let him know others had contacted me. I was simply waiting until the payment was made to mark it “sold”.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

+1
I once held an item for 2 days after an "I'll take it" the buyer was fairly new to the sub and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I also had two back up offers and communicated with them what was going on. Sent a "are you still interested?" day 1 and a "last call" day two. Sold it to the back up buyer.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

5 hours is an eternity today with everyone texting, DMing and retweeting while driving. 98% of those walking around shows are on their phones while walking and that includes the over 65 crowd too.

Everyone is going to have their own idea of what is reasonable. Might be time for some more detailed rules for the BST.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Vintage Vern

That needs to change IMO. That's where the sale is started. Everything should go through that, not DMs.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

5 hours is an eternity today with everyone texting, DMing and retweeting while driving. 98% of those walking around shows are on their phones while walking and that includes the over 65 crowd too.

Everyone is going to have their own idea of what is reasonable. Might be time for some more detailed rules for the BST.

Good luck with the idea of trying to enforce detailed rules on the B/S/T. There's a rule posted at the top of the board about people needing their full name available on a post if they comment on someone or on a specific company, and plenty of people can't manage to follow that. I doubt Leon or anyone else wants to have to police the B/S/T hourly.

[Vintage Vern]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Good luck with the idea of trying to enforce detailed rules on the B/S/T. There's a rule posted at the top of the board about people needing their full name available on a post if they comment on someone or on a specific company, and plenty of people can't manage to follow that. I doubt Leon or anyone else wants to have to police the B/S/T hourly.

Pretty simple. Its called accountability.

You don't follow the rules, you loose the privilege. We can all do our part. How hard is it to have to say, "I'll take it" in the initial thread and do everything else you're not comfortable with via DM. After all its luck of the draw to whomever sees it first, and pulls the trigger.

I'd rather have the I'll take it on the original post and if the deal falls flat for any reason it goes to the next person. It helps if the seller puts in all the wants in the original post. Money options, what's included what isn't, and what is up to the buyer above the initial price like insurance or type of shipping. Or you can work it out via DM, and if not happy as a buyer the next man or gal up has their turn in order from the original post.

The other option is to have all the backdoor BS of DMs, and people being upset, which is becoming more frequent.

It protects both parties, and it will be clear as day instead of mud. It doesn’t have to be patrolled, just enforced for either party that breaks the rules set in place. Yes, some may still get screwed out of something, but the instigator will loose their privileges.

[bigfanNY]

. When I stated I will take it. I consider that a pretty strong declaration of interest. In fact when I posted " I will take it" I gave my word I will follow through with the purchase at the asking price. Because between grown men that's what "I will take it" means. I understand you don't agree what the term " I will take it" means and how it in fact binds you to your word. Now everyone else who reads this thread will understand it as well.

I threatened nothing. I asked if we could Message Leon for his opinion. And after your long derogatory message I gave you my word how I would follow up.

As for him Blocking me he sent me at least 3 messages after saying I shouldn't contact him. So...?

[Cody77]

Jonathan,
I had to unblock you to see the response. Please don’t lie and say you made no threat to take me to court. I have the messages. I also explained in the message before you threatened legal action that you assumed you were the first to stake claim and that I said you weren’t. I was fielding interest in case the earlier potential buyers backed out. At no point did I say it was yours or that you weren’t the first to say you wanted it. You assumed all of that and I figured by messaging you telling you that I had a lot of interest in the item already, that you knew there was a queue. I sold it to the first to respond to my post. They did so via private message and not as a comment. So I was honoring the first to show interest and allowed them to respond and confirm before I sold it. I was going to add you to the queue and would have explained that to you more clearly had we had an exchange, but you never message back until nearly 11pm.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I threatened nothing. I asked if we could Message Leon for his opinion. And after your long derogatory message I gave you my word how I would follow up.

It's always funny when it takes just 10 minutes for the proof a lie was told to appear lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's always funny when it takes just 10 minutes for the proof a lie was told to appear lol.

I think you're misreading. Jonathan acknowledges what he did after the "long, derogatory" message. I think he means up to that point he did not threaten anything.

[SyrNy1960]

I think once communication starts between potential buyer and seller, especially when one says "I'll take it," it must be closed out before moving on to someone else. Many things can happen, causing delays in responses. JMO

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's always funny when it takes just 10 minutes for the proof a lie was told to appear lol.

What Lie? I said I threatened nothing. I gave my word on how I would respond. I don't issue threats.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

What Lie? I said I threatened nothing. I gave my word on how I would respond. I don't issue threats.

Saying "I will see you in court." sounds like a threat to me. It doesn't have to be physical violence to be considered a threat.

[bigfanNY]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Saying "I will see you in court." sounds like a threat to me. It doesn't have to be physical violence to be considered a threat.

I 100% agree with you saying I will see you in court sounds like a threat. But not what I said. I will update the thread down the road with my follow up.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

What Lie? I said I threatened nothing. I gave my word on how I would respond. I don't issue threats.

I'm sure you can figure out the incredibly obvious. Not a threat, because you're doing it, so it's just a promise and a promise isn't a threat. Can't wait to see the court filing of this crap

[ALBB]

The part about - " See you in court " really ??

[Cody77]

It’s fine, I’ll just refrain from selling on net54 anymore. If somehow a majority thinks that commenting on a thread “I’ll take it” somehow supercedes DM’s that I’m currently conversing with saying the same thing, just waiting until payment is made to mark sold. I messaged the comment poster, told him I already had others interested and somehow he and a majority on here still think he had a claim to it absolutely blows my mind. But if this is what is to be expected on this forum, it isn’t worth the trouble. I made a post, had people DM me without comments, hadn’t officially sold it, he commented and I messaged to let him know that others were interested, was confirming his interest and payment plan if a sale was to be made and if he was ok with all of it. Somehow, his 6 hour lapse of response to me telling him others were already involved before his comment still has people on here saying he had a right to it. Then one of those interested before him agreed and paid, and I mark the item sold, then he responds 4 hours after I marked sold in my messages asking for payment info and I inform him the item sold to one of those interested parties I mentioned in my original message to him, he becomes angry, throws a tantrum, and I politely ask him to stop messaging me and have to block him. Then he starts a forum post to drag my name for him not getting his way. Childish behavior. I took initiative, messaged him after his comment to let him know that he was not the first to want the item, but I hadn’t marked sold until I got payment and somehow I’m still in the wrong for most of the comments. Literally have been buying and selling for years and never experienced anything like this. Good luck to all those who try to do right through active communication! Doesn’t seem to be the norm here. Apparently making a comment on a post makes you queue to the head of the line over those who privately message and for some reason the seller should stop all communication with anyone who failed to comment on the post and wait for however long it takes for the commenter to actually respond to a message. And by the sound of it, could and should wait days before moving forward with other “actively engaging” interested parties.

[Lorewalker]

I know these conflicts are rare but if this keeps happening maybe very specific terms should be created for buyers who are making offers and sellers who create the listings?

Aside from that, the Jax looks nice and the price seems very fair.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I don't see anything wrong with the way either party handled the transaction, just an unfortunate result for Jonathan. The only thing apparent to me is that given the level of interest and the emotions involved the seller apparently sold the card too cheaply.

I'll agree with OJ on this one. I can see both sides, but I'm not sure that either party acted unreasonably. Well, until things got ugly, that is.

Sometimes we're going to lose out on cardboard to someone else who gets the deal done faster. If that's because we're prioritizing a dinner or sleep or something else, then that's our decision to make. If it's my buddy and we've done a lot of deals together, that's one thing. But unless a seller confirms that it's ours or that he'll hold it for us, I don't think you can just assume that it's yours or that it's being held for you, regardless of how many posts someone has on the board.

And I have to agree with the seller that an initial offer to take it, followed by radio silence doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, especially if it's someone that I've never dealt with in the past, and particularly in light of all of the other responses that were reportedly rolling in fast and furious.

It's just cardboard, my friends. Nothing to get that excited about. With any luck, our would-be buyer will find another one at a similar price, which should bring some measure of relief to the whole business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What do the words, "i'll take it," convey if not an intention to take it? This just isn't complicated IMO. The man said I'll take it, a follow up message was sent clarifying if he was good with no fee, the card was still available at that point, give the man a chance to finalize the deal. Good Lord, the pretzel twisting here is ridiculous IMO.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What do the words, "i'll take it," convey if not an intention to take it? This just isn't complicated IMO. The man said I'll take it, a follow up message was sent clarifying if he was good with no fee, the card was still available at that point, give the man a chance to finalize the deal. Good Lord, the pretzel twisting here is ridiculous IMO.

I think the bigger issue is the radio silence. We all have our own idea around what is an appropriate window to give someone. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to move on if the counterparty has gone dark and isn’t responding to requests to confirm key details.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think the bigger issue is the radio silence. We all have our own idea around what is an appropriate window to give someone. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to move on if the counterparty has gone dark and isn’t responding to requests to confirm key details.

It was a few hours. He didn't go dark at all, as I see it. Some of us aren't staring into our devices all day lol.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It was a few hours. He didn't go dark at all, as I see it. Some of us aren't staring into our devices all day lol.

Peter, you have over 33,000 posts. Clearly, you're staring into some device that has net54 visible on it more than most people.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Peter, you have over 33,000 posts. Clearly, you're staring into some device that has net54 visible on it more than most people.

LOL funny. Some days more active than others, depends on work, family, etc. I think I tend to pick up a lot of post counts in threads like this.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Peter, you have over 33,000 posts. Clearly, you're staring into some device that has net54 visible on it more than most people.

LOL and a card.