When did basketball stop becoming a contact sport?

[bk400]

After banging my head against the wall for years as a Knicks fan during the prime Jordan years, I took a break from watching basketball.

Went to a game at the Garden recently. It was still awesome to go back to the Garden, but the basketball has changed.

No one plays defense. I mean, anyone who plays defense gets called for a foul. No offense to any LeBron fans, but there is no doubt that Jordan is the GOAT. Just by virtue of the fact that Jordan played against guys that were actually allowed to try to stop him from driving to the basket.

Guys like Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason wouldn't get spot on a roster in today's NBA. Not sure Shaq would either, unless he learned how to do a step-back 3.

[philliesfan]

I do not know much about basketball but I agree with what you are saying. I agree that Jordan is the best all time and defense means nothing now. My son would show me clips of I think Luca Doncic(?) on defense and the player just walked by him to the basket.
From the little basketball I do watch, I agree there is not much defense anymore.
Bob

[BobbyStrawberry]

It's been a gradual thing over the last 10-12 years so. A few causes IMO:

-They have changed the rules about playing defense to the point that players almost have to defend without making contact.

-So many players are now allowed to carry the ball egregiously, making it harder to defend. Watch some Luka Doncic or Tyrese Halliburton highlights and you will see—they regularly will palm the ball and then lunge toward the basket in a way that's completely illegal and is very hard to counter.

-The way traveling is called (not called) - the footwork of the "Harden stepback" (dribble and then take three steps) has become the standard move for many players all around the court, allowing players to dance around defenders without dribbling. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is the master of this type of move currently.

-The rise of analytics and the shift of the game toward a 3-pt shootout. There is so much less contact when the game revolves around players standing around the 3-pt line. And if the defender even grazes the finger of the shooter or enters their "landing space" it's three free throws.

I miss the days of Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan and more defense. The NBA game has become sort of silly lately.

[Brent G.]

As a Pacers fan, I wonder what Reggie Miller would've done in today's NBA, chucking 10+ 3s a game ... but I LOVED the blood-and-guts era of the '80s and '90s. The Pacers/Knicks wars of the '90s were some of the best theater -- total wrestling match in the paint.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

It's been a gradual thing over the last 10-12 years so. A few causes IMO:

-They have changed the rules about playing defense to the point that players almost have to defend without making contact.

-So many players are now allowed to carry the ball egregiously, making it harder to defend. Watch some Luka Doncic or Tyrese Halliburton highlights and you will see—they regularly will palm the ball and then lunge toward the basket in a way that's completely illegal and is very hard to counter.

-The way traveling is called (not called) - the footwork of the "Harden stepback" (dribble and then take three steps) has become the standard move for many players all around the court, allowing players to dance around defenders without dribbling. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is the master of this type of move currently.

-The rise of analytics and the shift of the game toward a 3-pt shootout. There is so much less contact when the game revolves around players standing around the 3-pt line. And if the defender even grazes the finger of the shooter or enters their "landing space" it's three free throws.

I miss the days of Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan and more defense. The NBA game has become sort of silly lately.

I think the lack of calls of traveling and carrying the ball have been around longer than the last 10-12 years. What has changed more is the calls for minor contact, at least until the playoffs start. Then, it seems like the calls revert back to the 80s and 90s when they seemed to follow the "No blood, no foul" policy.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think the lack of calls of traveling and carrying the ball have been around longer than the last 10-12 years. What has changed more is the calls for minor contact, at least until the playoffs start. Then, it seems like the calls revert back to the 80s and 90s when they seemed to follow the "No blood, no foul" policy.

You're right, that aspect has been evolving for longer...I think it has gotten worse in recent years though.

I agree that playoffs they let them play a bit more. Also, international basketball is less silly than the NBA...they actually call travels and allow more defense. Olympics, World Cup, FIBA is some of my favorite stuff to watch.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You're right, that aspect has been evolving for longer...I think it has gotten worse in recent years though.

I agree! The NBA has been infamous for the amount of travelling with which players get away for decades but it's gotten even worse.

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Also, international basketball is less silly than the NBA...they actually call travels and allow more defense. Olympics, World Cup, FIBA is some of my favorite stuff to watch.

Oh, absolutely!

Where I disagree with many of you is that I believe that Wilt Chamberlain is still the greatest of all time. Consider. The NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult for him to dominate (plus of course there was much more defence back in the 1960's). But the NBA changed the rules to make it easier for Michael Jordan to dominate simply because the NBA wanted to encourage spectacle as opposed to defence.

[bk400]

Here's a couple of cards for the thread. The man, the myth, the legend: The Oak. In the autographed card, he's winning a rebound against Joe Smith of the Warriors in a manner that would earn him a Flagrant 2 in today's game probably.

As an aside, I know politics aren't allowed, but if don't support Charles Oakley in his beef with James Dolan, you're not a real Knicks fan.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I agree! The NBA has been infamous for the amount of travelling with which players get away for decades but it's gotten even worse.

Oh, absolutely!

Where I disagree with many of you is that I believe that Wilt Chamberlain is still the greatest of all time. Consider. The NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult for him to dominate (plus of course there was much more defence back in the 1960's). But the NBA changed the rules to make it easier for Michael Jordan to dominate simply because the NBA wanted to encourage spectacle as opposed to defence.

Wilt as the GOAT is definitely a fair argument to make. Another guy I don't hear mentioned enough is George Mikan. Also completely dominant in his time.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bk400

Here's a couple of cards for the thread. The man, the myth, the legend: The Oak. In the autographed card, he's winning a rebound against Joe Smith of the Warriors in a manner that would earn him a Flagrant 2 in today's game probably.

As an aside, I know politics aren't allowed, but if don't support Charles Oakley in his beef with James Dolan, you're not a real Knicks fan.

Nice cards! I think if you're a human, you have to support Oakley in that feud...

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

As a Pacers fan, I wonder what Reggie Miller would've done in today's NBA, chucking 10+ 3s a game ... but I LOVED the blood-and-guts era of the '80s and '90s. The Pacers/Knicks wars of the '90s were some of the best theater -- total wrestling match in the paint.

I missed this post. You should be called for a personal foul, unnecessary roughness, for bringing up Reggie Miller in any thread that involves the Knicks. That's just mean, man.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by bk400

I missed this post. You should be called for a personal foul, unnecessary roughness, for bringing up Reggie Miller in any thread that involves the Knicks. That's just mean, man.

I think they split things about 50/50, but I give the Knicks the advantage by ending the Pacers' best shot at a title in '99 ... even if it came on a phantom foul on LJ

I really hated the Knicks back then, but now I just appreciate the great entertainment those villains provided from '93-'00. Mason/Oakley vs. the Davis boys was just pure WAR.

[Brent G.]

But because I couldn't let Knicks cards own the thread, here's my favorite from my collection.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

But because I couldn't let Knicks cards own the thread, here's my favorite from my collection.

That's a nice card. Honestly, I still can't see Spike Lee or a clip from a Spike Lee movie without seeing Reggie f**king Miller.

"8 points, 9 seconds." That's up there with, "Patrick Ewing, finger roll." And "Charles Smith, under the basket."

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by bk400

That's a nice card. Honestly, I still can't see Spike Lee or a clip from a Spike Lee movie without seeing Reggie f**king Miller.

"8 points, 9 seconds." That's up there with, "Patrick Ewing, finger roll." And "Charles Smith, under the basket."

When I heard this week that Spike and Ewing would be signing at the National, I emailed Tristar to tell them they need to get Reggie in that building. For a Spike/Reggie signed piece, they can just take all my money.

[bk400]

I would be shocked if Spike Lee signs anything with Reggie Miller. I heard that they actually hate each other.

Here's a card depicting prime Mace. Can't have the Oak and not the Mace.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Wilt as the GOAT is definitely a fair argument to make. Another guy I don't hear mentioned enough is George Mikan. Also completely dominant in his time.

I haven't really followed basketball much since my Braves left Buffalo. Wilt would be my all time greatest player also. Even into the mid 1980s there were always rumors that some NBA team was trying to entice him out of retirement.

As a head coach in San Diego of the ABA in 1973-74 he was not very good. An early strategy was having his players foul an opponent frequently to make them "earn" their points at the free throw line. They got killed. He must have thought all of the other players were terrible free-throw shooters like himself.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by bk400

I would be shocked if Spike Lee signs anything with Reggie Miller. I heard that they actually hate each other.

Here's a card depicting prime Mace. Can't have the Oak and not the Mace.

They don’t make them like Anthony Mason anymore. He also had a very skilled barber — some fantastic designs.

I always thought Spike and Reggie were cool, going back to their bet in the ‘94 East finals, that Spike would put Reggie’s then-wife in a movie if the Pacers won.

[SAllen2556]

I watched a Pistons game for the first time in about 15 years - that's about how long they've been too awful to watch. I agree that the game has really changed. Almost every possession was either a 3-point shot or a dunk. Very little contact. Way more boring than it used to be.

Basketball has always had a couple fatal flaws IMO, one being the whole concept of free throws. Deciding a game by free throws ruins the game. I wish instead they did like the NHL and removed a player for a period of time. A little 5 on 4 would be way more fun to watch than 40 free throws per game.

The other flaw is that the refs have too much power in determining the outcome of the game. The NBA averages about 21 personal fouls per game while the NHL averages around 9. The NFL around 6. I think that's why the NBA seems "fixed" at times - the refs have way to much say in the outcome.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Wilt as the GOAT is definitely a fair argument to make. Another guy I don't hear mentioned enough is George Mikan. Also completely dominant in his time.

I am a big fan of Wilt and Mikan, but I think there are only three players you can make a good argument for as GOAT. Whether you look at awards, counting stats or advanced stats, MJ, LeBron and Kareem stand out above everyone else.



Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[carlsonjok]

While last Saturday's Thunder-Pistons game was a real donnybrook, I suspect the huge dollars involved in the game (and all sports for that matter) make it increasingly likely that such games are the exception. Investments of that size need to be protected, not unlike a super rare card being shipped from an auction house.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

...The rise of analytics and the shift of the game toward a 3-pt shootout. There is so much less contact when the game revolves around players standing around the 3-pt line. And if the defender even grazes the finger of the shooter or enters their "landing space" it's three free throws.

I miss the days of Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan and more defense. The NBA game has become sort of silly lately.

It has been several years since the last time I watched a basketball game. James Harden was playing and he repeatedly did something I found quite irritating.

Harden would receive a pass and shoot a 3-pointer. When he did, his legs would "kick" out in front of him. If he happened to kick the defender, the ref would call a foul...on the defender.

So, wait. You can kick someone and they get hit with a foul? What kind of horse$#!t is this?

(cue the old-person-reminiscing music)

Back in my day, if you purposefully kicked a defender, you wouldn't get free throws. You'd get dropped. As in, the other team's biggest player would take a swing at you (with ill intent) and likely connect.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Eric72

It has been several years since the last time I watched a basketball game. James Harden was playing and he repeatedly did something I found quite irritating.

Harden would receive a pass and shoot a 3-pointer. When he did, his legs would "kick" out in front of him. If he happened to kick the defender, the ref would call a foul...on the defender.

So, wait. You can kick someone and they get hit with a foul? What kind of horse$#!t is this?

(cue the old-person-reminiscing music)

Back in my day, if you purposefully kicked a defender, you wouldn't get free throws. You'd get dropped. As in, the other team's biggest player would take a swing at you (with ill intent) and likely connect.

That's now something that can be called as an offensive foul if it's ruled to not be part of the natural shooting motion. I think it was changed to be like that a few years ago.

[frankbmd]

Just look at the shot and look at the next post

[frankbmd]

Just look at the shot charts. The percentage of attempts between the "paint" and the "3 point line" is usually 10% or less.

Grade school coaches must be telling the boys,

"Now boys I want you all to spread out behind the line. If you get the ball, shoot. If you get a rebound, look for an open teammate behind the line so he can shoot. The fans will be yelling "DEE-FENCE", so you don't have to worry about it."

Yes, the game has changed and become boring to watch. Wouldn't it be interesting to see today's players on a court without the three point line. They wouldn't know where to stand or when to shoot. I would be more interested in seeing the "Final 3" than the "Final 4"

[bk400]

Sometimes I wonder why the current NBA players even bother lifting weights, as the vast majority of rebounds are uncontested; contact is not allowed against a driving player; and there is so little post-up play in the paint.

Cue the old man music (love that reference, btw), but Steph Curry doesn't exist in the 90s. Gary Payton would have crushed him.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bk400

Sometimes I wonder why the current NBA players even bother lifting weights, as the vast majority of rebounds are uncontested; contact is not allowed against a driving player; and there is so little post-up play in the paint.

Cue the old man music (love that reference, btw), but Steph Curry doesn't exist in the 90s. Gary Payton would have crushed him.

Steve Kerr had a 15 year career and played during that era, and was strictly a stand in the corner spot up specialist.

Steph Curry would have been fine in any era. Even at 37 years old he moves without the ball better then just about anybody. That's his secret sauce. He's always on the move. All he needs is the tiniest amount of space to get his shot off, from just about anywhere on the court. He hits ridiculous shots at a historic rate of efficiency, even though everybody in the arena thinks they know what he wants to do with the ball. He's also an excellent facilitator when need be.

His biggest flaw is that he can be exploited defensively in certain matchups, which is true of any smaller Guard.

Though he's not as bad defensively as some might think. He has been among the league leaders in steals many times and has been a part of many statistically strong defensive teams with the Warriors.

Hell, if the notoriously inefficient shooting 6 foot Allen Iverson can have a HOF career playing in the "Gary Payton era", I'm pretty sure Curry could to.

Not saying Payton, might not have had Curry's number in head to head matchups...but that's just one guy in a 30 team league. Paytons one of the greatest defensive guards to ever play the game. Luckily for Curry and others, most teams didn't have another Gary Payton.

Curry has also never had a problem with other guys scoring instead of him, if he's not feeling it.

Shutting down Curry, doesn't necessarily mean, shutting down his team.

[D. Bergin]

I do miss the smash-mouth days of 80's-90's NBA and old Big East physical college play to, but I also remember they shot even more free-throws back then, then they do now.

Fouling has always been a strategy, it's just a matter of what you can get away with, and walking that line defensively based on the rules in place at any given time.

I also remember people complaining that the guys back then should pass the ball more, stop hacking offensive players, stop playing ugly basketball, and get better at shooting outside shots, because it was more skillful then just being tall and dunking on the inside.

They began changing the rules to cater to the public's perception of things...and eventually, we got what everybody wished for, and nobody liked that either, LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would start by silencing the organ music.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have been saying for year they should have a 2 feet or so rule beyond the 3 point line a '3 or 5 second rule' like you have in the paint so you dont have guys just waiting there to chuck up 3s and keeping the floor so wide open .

I dont know how you can be pummeled and getting a AND 1 in the paint is worth the same as a 3 point shot. Right now only layups and 3s really make sense unless can hit 65 percent or so from 2 or get to the line..

3s are also rewarded now because you get fouled on a 3 more so now then in the past by being in the shooters 'landing zone', yeah there are no kick outs like reggie miller but im sure if you look at the stats there are way more fouls on 3 point attempts then in years past, correct me if im wrong.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I have been saying for year they should have a 2 feet or so rule beyond the 3 point line a '3 or 5 second rule' like you have in the paint so you dont have guys just waiting there to chuck up 3s and keeping the floor so wide open .

I dont know how you can be pummeled and getting a AND 1 in the paint is worth the same as a 3 point shot. Right now only layups and 3s really make sense unless can hit 65 percent or so from 2 or get to the line..

3s are also rewarded now because you get fouled on a 3 more so now then in the past by being in the shooters 'landing zone', yeah there are no kick outs like reggie miller but im sure if you look at the stats there are way more fouls on 3 point attempts then in years past, correct me if im wrong.

I'm not sure about the actual stats, but since there are a lot more 3 point shots being taken, there are probably a lot more fouls being called on them. Whether or not it's a statistical difference I don't know.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Another bad part of the current NBA game is the "offensive player going to the basket goes out of their way to shove their shoulder into the defender, resulting in a defensive foul." Harden and Luka Doncic do this a lot

Watching some of the NCAA tournament the last few days (mens and womens) is a refresher that outside of the NBA, basketball is still basketball for the most part.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Another bad part of the current NBA game is the "offensive player going to the basket goes out of their way to shove their shoulder into the defender, resulting in a defensive foul." Harden and Luka Doncic do this a lot

Watching some of the NCAA tournament the last few days (mens and womens) is a refresher that outside of the NBA, basketball is still basketball for the most part.

Yes, it's the whole feet not set thing that I don't understand. I never understood why the defender doesn't have the same right to the space as the player with the ball. Allow the contact when both players are fighting for the same space.

You can tell from scores like 145-130 in games that defense has been handicapped. Kind of like baseball in that way.

[Balticfox]

Not to mention the travelling allowed. As played under the rules/officiating of the NBA, the game has become a travesty of that which was intended.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Just look at the shot charts. The percentage of attempts between the "paint" and the "3 point line" is usually 10% or less.

Grade school coaches must be telling the boys,

"Now boys I want you all to spread out behind the line. If you get the ball, shoot. If you get a rebound, look for an open teammate behind the line so he can shoot. The fans will be yelling "DEE-FENCE", so you don't have to worry about it."

Yes, the game has changed and become boring to watch. Wouldn't it be interesting to see today's players on a court without the three point line. They wouldn't know where to stand or when to shoot. I would be more interested in seeing the "Final 3" than the "Final 4"

A long way from my HS potential coach telling me something like "you're a good outside shooter, but that doesn't win games, inside play does. And you have to admit you're awful at that. " And so I only went as far as the first cut.
He wasn't wrong.

[steve B]

A few random thoughts.

I watched a video of a guy getting autographs of the greatest for each main sport on an album page that had originally just had Babe Ruth. My wife wondered why that was a thing, and that it seemed odd.

The autos?
Ruth
Brady
Gretzky
Lionel Messi ?

I said basketball would be tough as the greatest all time were mostly dead.
Wilt, Bill Russell, and maybe Mikan, leaving Jordan in 4th but first living.

To me basketball started it's long decline in the mid 90s.
The first dream team was amazing and showed what basketball could be.
By 96, it was still sort of amazing if you didn't look too closely. I was at US/China at those Olympics, and one player was set up for an easy dunk.... and missed it three straight possessions. They still massively outscored China, but didn't look good doing it.
It had become theater, a bunch of set pieces for the star of that drive to show off.
Seeing a few NBA games on tv after that has not changed that opinion.