SUBJECT: BEWARE Steve Verkman, Keith Vari, Leland’s, Clean Sweep & Paragon auctions

[bigfanNY]

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

[mannequin1]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

As time went on, he collected some Yaz, Seaver and Tony Perez stuff too, players he also liked. He could have had some great/rare items of these players as well, but from what I last knew it was probably 90% Rusty Staub items. He used to go to Rusty's restaurant in NYC a lot and get his items signed.

[sflayank]

looks to me that by the time everything is auctioned off hes gonna owe them money

[mannequin1]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

P.S. Jonathan, I remember seeing you and your father Joe set up at the old Paul Gallagher NYC shows in the 70s to 80s.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

Is it standard practice to charge interest on an advance from an auction house?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Is it standard practice to charge interest on an advance from an auction house?

I hadn't realized it when I started out, but I have heard of it being done by a number of auctions, though I certainly don't know if it's a universal practice. We aren't funded like the big boys so we don't do a ton of advances but we haven't charged interest in those cases where we've done them.

It would seem to incentivize NOT bringing the collection to auction in a timely fashion, especially if a time frame isn't outlined in the contract.

[tiger8mush]

.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hadn't realized it when I started out, but I have heard of it being done by a number of auctions, though I certainly don't know if it's a universal practice. We aren't funded like the big boys so we don't do a ton of advances but we haven't charged interest in those cases where we've done them.

It would seem to incentivize NOT bringing the collection to auction in a timely fashion, especially if a time frame isn't outlined in the contract.

I thought the same thing about possibly slowing down the items being auctioned if there's interest being charged. Also, there's nothing in the contract that was posted to indicate interest on the advance. In fact, it says no additional fees so interest really doesn't make sense.

[egri]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I thought the same thing about possibly slowing down the items being auctioned if there's interest being charged. Also, there's nothing in the contract that was posted to indicate interest on the advance. In fact, it says no additional fees so interest really doesn't make sense.

That's why I was hoping there was more to the contract than what has been posted, because what has been posted so far is a real mess.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Is it standard practice to charge interest on an advance from an auction house?

Advances are popular for big ticket items as they may help bring in the consignment with all other things being equal.

I have gotten them in the past from multiple auction houses and have never paid any interest.

The advance is simply deducted from the consignor's final earnings at auction end.

Obviously, if the proceeds do not cover the advance, the uncovered advance must be returned to the auction house which rarely happens.

[egri]

Is 16% a reasonable rate of interest for an advance? I could probably go to the bank and get a personal loan with a lower rate.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

How can you payoff an advance you never took?

Something is weird in this story!

Literally, many thousands of customers/consignors have been satisfied with the service over the last 35 years from Lelands and Clean Sweep so I guess they will make up their own minds about the validity of this claim.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by rand1com

How can you payoff an advance you never took?

Something is weird in this story!

Literally, many thousands of customers/consignors have been satisfied with the service over the last 35 years from Lelands and Clean Sweep so I guess they will make up their own minds about the validity of this claim.

Whether he cashed the check or not, he did get the advance as far as the auction house is concerned.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Whether he cashed the check or not, he did get the advance as far as the auction house is concerned.

I assumed he returned the check to them. Maybe not.

[Exhibitman]

The auctioneers knew exactly what they were doing. Under NY law 16% is the most you can charge w/o committing civil usury. Maybe legal but not a good look, guys.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The auctioneers knew exactly what they were doing. Under NY law 16% is the most you can charge w/o committing civil usury. Maybe legal but not a good look, guys.

Yikes. Yeah, that's not a good look at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Yikes. Yeah, that's not a good look at all.

Especially on a sum that in context to the AH is negligible.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

I found out a couple more facts about this as Joe is a friend of a friend. Joe has not cashed any advance checks, but already got a bill saying he owed 16% interest on the advance until it is paid off. Joe's favorite player was Rusty Staub but his collection is much wider than that. All Joe wants is to get his items back. No checks have been cashed and if Lelands has any real costs he is willing to make them whole. But as of today Lelands has refused. I only met Josh a few times over a few decades but I cannot see him agreeing a customer should be treated like this.

Can we get the proof of this claim? The contract he produced has no mention of 16% interest rates on the advance. A follow-up contractual agreement, a copy of the bill, or similar documentation is needed. Did he of his own free will, though regretted now, sign an agreement to take a $15K advance at 16% interest, or is he receiving bills for an absurd interest rate he never signed anything agreeing to? Either way, this should be quick and easy to prove if true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One thing that may be informing people's opinions that the fee was unfair is this claim by the OP:

I have already been contacted by another auction house telling me if I am successful getting the collection returned they would take it on consignment and give me 100% of the hammer + a percentage of the buyers premium.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing that may be informing people's opinions that the fee was unfair is this claim by the OP:

I have already been contacted by another auction house telling me if I am successful getting the collection returned they would take it on consignment and give me 100% of the hammer + a percentage of the buyers premium.

If true, maybe he should have contacted a lawyer instead of posting on a baseball card forum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If true, maybe he should have contacted a lawyer instead of posting on a baseball card forum.

It's hard to assess whether it's credible, seems unlikely given the nature of the collection and the amount of work that would be involved, but who knows.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If true, maybe he should have contacted a lawyer instead of posting on a baseball card forum.

He can do both.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

He can do both.

True, but his first post had this in it so apparently he hadn't at that point which was 2 months after he signed the contract:

1) If you are an attorney and believe you can be of any help please reach out to me

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

True, but his first post had this in it so apparently he hadn't at that point which was 2 months after he signed the contract:

1) If you are an attorney and believe you can be of any help please reach out to me

Maybe he did before and was told he had no claim, or the lawyers were not interested in the case.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If true, maybe he should have contacted a lawyer instead of posting on a baseball card forum.

Disgusting precedent to set.

Poor form for an auction house to reach out IMO.
Not knowing what the collection is
Details are sketchy at best
Advance was given in good faith...even if not cashed

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Disgusting precedent to set.

Poor form for an auction house to reach out IMO.
Not knowing what the collection is
Details are sketchy at best
Advance was given in good faith...even if not cashed

Everyone, including me, is speculating with a ridiculous lack of facts.

Having said that, based on the consignor's claim of receiving a surprise bill for 16% interest, I wonder if your last comment about the advance being given in good faith passes the smell test.

Again, all speculation with the facts so murky.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Everyone, including me, is speculating with a ridiculous lack of facts.

Having said that, based on the consignor's claim of receiving a surprise bill for 16% interest, I wonder if your last comment about the advance being given in good faith passes the smell test.

Again, all speculation with the facts so murky.

Good point on the 16% vig. Clean Sweep and Steve Verkman have a pretty good rep in the business. But business, is just that

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Disgusting precedent to set.

Poor form for an auction house to reach out IMO.
Not knowing what the collection is
Details are sketchy at best
Advance was given in good faith...even if not cashed

+1

Also, as stated above, no chance any legitimate auction house would make that commitment not having any idea of the volume or value of the collection sight unseen.