Poll Should GA disclose that the PSA 6.5 and SGC MIN SIZE Dimaggios are same card?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why can't an opinion be material? I am selling a revolutionary new cancer treatment, claiming that it is safe. But I conceal that expert A -- let's make him the most prominent expert in the world -- told me clearly that in his opinion the treatment was highly unsafe. No fraud because it's not a "fact"?

Please don't turn this into a political discussion, but did you not just live through the same pandemic the rest of us did?

Regardless, you seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that these graders are experts. They're just not. 90% of them know less about the cards they're grading than nearly everyone here on this board.

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Please don't turn this into a political discussion, but did you not just live through the same pandemic the rest of us did?

Regardless, you seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that these graders are experts. They're just not. 90% of them know less about the cards they're grading than nearly everyone here on this board.

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

I don't think there would be an obligation to disclose individuals' informal opinions on cards under any circumstances, no. But it's a good hypothetical.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

I suspect it's because most of the marketplace believes the TPG marketing puffery, and hasn't come to the dawning realization that the graders aren't really as infallible as they purport to be.

In any auction, all it takes is 2 bidders to set the price, even if the rest of us sit it out because we don't like what we see under the plastic.

I also think that there's a counterpoint, which is that cards with the same grade will still sell (at times) for dramatically different prices, if the underlying cardboard looks nice for the grade, or on the flip side if the cardboard looks like hot garbage for the grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I suspect it's because most of the marketplace believes the TPG marketing puffery, and hasn't come to the dawning realization that the graders aren't really as infallible as they purport to be.

In any auction, all it takes is 2 bidders to set the price, even if the rest of us sit it out because we don't like what we see under the plastic.

I also think that there's a counterpoint, which is that cards with the same grade will still sell (at times) for dramatically different prices, if the underlying cardboard looks nice for the grade, or on the flip side if the cardboard looks like hot garbage for the grade.

So -- genuine question, not critical -- why instead of just collecting Mays are you competing on the Mays registry?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So -- genuine question, not critical -- why instead of just collecting Mays are you competing on the Mays registry?

It's not much of a competition at the moment, at least for the Master Mays set, as no one else seems to really be actively doing much.

But in terms of why I use the set registry, it's mostly because it helps me to keep track of what I have and what I'm missing.

And since 99.99% of my graded pieces are in PSA slabs, there's also an element that I do it because it's there.

Plus, of course, a man needs to demonstrate for all the world to see the size of his...collection.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

Because of trickle down EGOnomics. Dumbass A wants to compete against Dumbass B so he can claim he has the best collection around. And of course ignorance about the grading process plays a role as well. If these guys knew that their PSA 9s were all just cracked out of PSA 6 holders and resubmitted, they might change their minds about which cards they choose to buy in the future. Then again, they might not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A remarkable marketing achievement, to have built so successful a business on services of illusory value -- or just luck. Either way.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A remarkable marketing achievement, to have built so successful a business on services of illusory value -- or just luck. Either way.

I think there’s also some bad actors in the raw market that help to facilitate the TPG marketing machine.

That and the rise of buying and selling online.

So the concept isn’t entirely based on smoke and mirrors. But the execution leaves a lot to be desired for sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know the original intent, although i suppose the Wagner might be a clue.

But I would guess that fairly quickly it became clear there just were not enough high grade completely unaltered vintage cards to sustain the type of growth they had in mind, and they began making certain compromises with certain people. Pure speculation of course.

[Lorewalker]

There are quite a lot of people in the hobby who are overly reliant on a third party's opinion. So of course they are going to err on the side of wanting disclosure on the entire history of a card from the time it was pulled from the pack.

If people understood better the almost randomness to which these graders assign grades and had the skills to actually determine the condition of a card and determine its authenticity for themselves, they might not be as rigid in their requirements for what needs to be disclosed.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A remarkable marketing achievement, to have built so successful a business on services of illusory value -- or just luck. Either way.

I think it was luck. At least the effect that the registry has had on market prices component anyhow. I think they just wanted to create a useful way for collectors to organize their sets and give them checklists to chase. Leading to more submissions. I think that was their goal initially. Getting people to want to submit their commons in addition to their high value cards so that they could have full sets in slabs. But I don't think they envisioned it giving them a massive edge over the competition in the long run by having this upward pricing pressure from the registry a decade later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You may be right, although it would not surprise me if Steve Rocchi understood the potential for the registry to spur male ego driven competition among well to do collectors.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think there would be an obligation to disclose individuals' informal opinions on cards under any circumstances, no. But it's a good hypothetical.

So an expert's informal opinion wouldn't need to be disclosed but an ignoramus' formal opinion would because he gets paid $19/hr to grade cards in between Mountain Dew breaks?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

So an expert's informal opinion wouldn't need to be disclosed but an ignoramus' formal opinion would because he gets paid $19/hr to grade cards in between Mountain Dew breaks?

LOL. I am guessing someone high up like Dave would have graded the DiMaggio, no? They're not going to entrust a potential 6 figure card to some kid.

[nolemmings]

So I'm just curious. If we can't pick and choose what should be disclosed, then what if that WWG card or any other were graded Authentic--Altered/trimmed and then later deemed by a different company to get a numeric grade? No reason to disclose the prior "altered" grade? Just an opinion no different than if the first company slabbed it with a lower numeric grade? Is that in essence the argument advanced by some here?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. I am guessing someone high up like Dave would have graded the DiMaggio, no? They're not going to entrust a potential 6 figure card to some kid.

I used to think that as well. But I've changed my mind after seeing some of my results even at the highest grading tiers. I'd say it's more likely that an experienced grader gets these submissions but it's far from a guarantee. The variance is lower than it is for bulk level submissions, but it still very much feels like the Wild West.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

Time to fire up that sticker enterprise that you've been talking about!