Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[butchie_t]

This falls into a certain line of thought for me that I have had for a while now.

In the archived thread, someone posted ads in various papers from Aarco that requested card stock from anyone that had it. Now, why would they ask for card stock?

Print cards? Print something......cards?????

This would certainly explain the back color and the stock differences.

B.T.

Please, again I am asking as well here, others that have not yet and that would be kind enough to weigh in here......It certainly would be appreciated.

It is a fair assessment so far that these cards should be catalogued and recognized among collectors and the TPGs. (Again, I ain't sending mine to any of the TPGs, regardless of how this plays out.)

These cards are not orphans, maybe stepchildren, but not orphans.

B.T.

[Johnphotoman]

First set: Bond Bread on top, Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects on bottom. Second set: The backs of the cards, Bond Bread on top- notice on cream white paper stock. Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects on bottom- notice the bright white paper stock. Third set: The backs, left top Bond Bread, bottom left Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. Right top Bond Bread, bottom right Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. See the difference between the two paper stocks they are printed on.

[Johnphotoman]

In 1947 the cards we call Bond Bread filled the baseball card void created by WWII. Many of the images on the cards were from before 1947, some of the images are from circa 1930-1946. This is one of many reasons why I changed my mind on how the squared corner cards were issued and in what year. Many of us believed that the square corner cards were issued in 1949, because of the information we had at the time. I did believe at one time that the squared corner cards were issued circa 1949 and were sold in boxes, but the facts have proven this wrong. Mostly I believed this because of what I read in the Ted Z thread posted in Net54Baseball.com.

Now is the time for the old-timers to way in or the people who have talked to them and give the information they may have. Please tell us what you know. I have said repeatedly now that new information has come to the front, that I have found no tangible evidence that the square cornered cards we call Bond Bread were issued in 1949. No tangible evidence the square cards were ever issued in boxes, like the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. (The cards in these boxes all had round corners).

What I do have is notes…notes where people mentioned that the squared issued cards could have been issued in boxes like the Collectors & Traders, but not one person that I have spoken to has said they collected the squared corner cards in boxes. Only that they remember seeing them around the same time as seeing the Collectors & Traders cards, therefore they assumed the cards came in boxes too.

The thing here is… there is a high probability and possibility that people started seeing the squared corner cards before seeing the round Bond Bread cards that were packaged or inserted into loaves of Bond Bread in 1947. Now this does go against the grain of what people like Ted Z believed. But it is a more logical order of how and when the squared corner cards were issued. It does appear that Ted Z wanted the round cards to be the first issues, but if you go back and read what was said you will find no empirical or tangible evidence for this theory, other than that is what people wanted the narrative to be. But there are people who have said they saw the squared corner cards circa 1947.

For the sake of confusion, let's call the 1947 round and square cornered card the “Main Bond Bread Set”. Some of the other sets associated with Bond Bread were printed and issued before 1947. Yes, there were other sets associated with Bond Bread that were issued circa 1949-1950, but none of them were from the main 1947 sets. I understand that it would be possible to take the 1947 main Bond Bread sets and reissue them circa 1949-1950s or later, but there is no proof that there was ever a reissue of 1947 main Bond Bread cards: in any form or time. On the other hand, we have first hand knowledge for the issuing of the main Bond Bread cards circa 1947, information gathered through direct collecting of the cards.

What we do know is that the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of bread were more an East coast regional issue of cards. Whereas the squared corner cards we call Bond Bread were more a nation issue. Think about them as you would S&H Green Stamps. For those of you who don’t know-S&H Green Stamps were a loyalty rewards program that allowed customers to earn stamps at participating retailers. The stamps could be collected in booklets and redeemed for products from the S&H catalog. This program became popular nationwide.The squared corner cards were kind of like that, retailers would give them out, they were distributed as part of a rewards program to customers.

Customers would receive the cards at the checkout counter of supermarkets, department stores and gasoline stations among other retailers. All information points to Aarco Playing Card company, as the company that offered the cards to retailers. This is why we can not find a single issuer of cards but many different issuers of the cards. This is why people say they receive their cards from many different retailers. Retailers had a choice of subjects to choose from, Sports Stars, Cowboys, Hollywood Screen Stars, cards were all offered for sale by Aarco Playing company as a loyalty rewards program for retailers: and the evidence is that the loyalty rewards program cards were all printed with square corners. Yes, other cards were offered for sale in boxes or sheets but they had round corners or were perforated cards. Hence the square corner and round corner cards. John

[butchie_t]

Damn good write up John. From the information you have gathered and continue to gather, you are certainly building the gap for these cards. And frankly, this has been the best explanation to date.

Others may have a difference of opinion and I encourage them to weigh in here. But, I truly believe you are onto the fact that Aarco printed them and distributed them to any and all that bought them. It makes the best sense so far.

Regards,

Butch Turner

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

In 1947 the cards we call Bond Bread filled the baseball card void created by WWII. Many of the images on the cards were from before 1947, some of the images are from circa 1930-1946. This is one of many reasons why I changed my mind on how the squared corner cards were issued and in what year. Many of us believed that the square corner cards were issued in 1949, because of the information we had at the time. I did believe at one time that the squared corner cards were issued circa 1949 and were sold in boxes, but the facts have proven this wrong. Mostly I believed this because of what I read in the Ted Z thread posted in Net54Baseball.com.

Now is the time for the old-timers to way in or the people who have talked to them and give the information they may have. Please tell us what you know. I have said repeatedly now that new information has come to the front, that I have found no tangible evidence that the square cornered cards we call Bond Bread were issued in 1949. No tangible evidence the square cards were ever issued in boxes, like the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. (The cards in these boxes all had round corners).

What I do have is notes…notes where people mentioned that the squared issued cards could have been issued in boxes like the Collectors & Traders, but not one person that I have spoken to has said they collected the squared corner cards in boxes. Only that they remember seeing them around the same time as seeing the Collectors & Traders cards, therefore they assumed the cards came in boxes too.

The thing here is… there is a high probability and possibility that people started seeing the squared corner cards before seeing the round Bond Bread cards that were packaged or inserted into loaves of Bond Bread in 1947. Now this does go against the grain of what people like Ted Z believed. But it is a more logical order of how and when the squared corner cards were issued. It does appear that Ted Z wanted the round cards to be the first issues, but if you go back and read what was said you will find no empirical or tangible evidence for this theory, other than that is what people wanted the narrative to be. But there are people who have said they saw the squared corner cards circa 1947.

For the sake of confusion, let's call the 1947 round and square cornered card the “Main Bond Bread Set”. Some of the other sets associated with Bond Bread were printed and issued before 1947. Yes, there were other sets associated with Bond Bread that were issued circa 1949-1950, but none of them were from the main 1947 sets. I understand that it would be possible to take the 1947 main Bond Bread sets and reissue them circa 1949-1950s or later, but there is no proof that there was ever a reissue of 1947 main Bond Bread cards: in any form or time. On the other hand, we have first hand knowledge for the issuing of the main Bond Bread cards circa 1947, information gathered through direct collecting of the cards.

What we do know is that the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of bread were more an East coast regional issue of cards. Whereas the squared corner cards we call Bond Bread were more a nation issue. Think about them as you would S&H Green Stamps. For those of you who don’t know-S&H Green Stamps were a loyalty rewards program that allowed customers to earn stamps at participating retailers. The stamps could be collected in booklets and redeemed for products from the S&H catalog. This program became popular nationwide.The squared corner cards were kind of like that, retailers would give them out, they were distributed as part of a rewards program to customers.

Customers would receive the cards at the checkout counter of supermarkets, department stores and gasoline stations among other retailers. All information points to Aarco Playing Card company, as the company that offered the cards to retailers. This is why we can not find a single issuer of cards but many different issuers of the cards. This is why people say they receive their cards from many different retailers. Retailers had a choice of subjects to choose from, Sports Stars, Cowboys, Hollywood Screen Stars, cards were all offered for sale by Aarco Playing company as a loyalty rewards program for retailers: and the evidence is that the loyalty rewards program cards were all printed with square corners. Yes, other cards were offered for sale in boxes or sheets but they had round corners or were perforated cards. Hence the square corner and round corner cards. John

[Johnphotoman]

The story of - a David Festberg warehouse find of Bond Bread cards in the 1980 may be a made up story:

David Festberg, a very noted (and colorful!) collector and dealer of Baseball cards from Brooklyn, New York, who was extremely active in the hobby for several decades. In the 1980 he muddy the waters around the Bond Bread cards.

But to tell you the truth there is not much known about David Festberg. There is as much controversy around him as the Bond Bread cards.

I did find this article: UPI Archives March 5, 1981-By ED LION. This article talked about David Festberg.
“And By The Way ...High-stakes baseball card dealing: 'Like the stockmarket”

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/03...7114352616400/

The article starts out, “Thousands of baseball card collectors of all ages, from as far away as California and Canada, spent a recent weekend feverishly trading cards at the Creation Baseball Convention.”

It then must have interviewed David Festberg, It says that David Festberg was 29, a Brooklyn postman and one of the thousands of avid card trader at the convention.

“I collect them for fun, but for many it's a business with big bucks,” said David Festberg, 29, a Brooklyn postman and one of the thousands of avid card trader at the convention. Festberg, who in his free time runs 'The Baseball Hobby Shop,' a store featuring baseball cards and other such memorabilia. Festberg is only one of an estimated 250,000 avid baseball card collectors in the nation.

Many people said he was a character and hard to deal with. But he did put his mark on the Bond Bread cards. And maybe not in a good way.

The threads below are before the Net54 baseball.com: forum we have now. This is two years before Ted Z posted in Net54baseball.com in 2009, his now famous thread: 1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

Oct 30, 2007#31- Tapatalk Net54VintageBaseballCardForum. Ted Z.

“One of the earliest available Post-WWII baseball card sets is the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread issue. The 48 black and white cards in this set were found inserted in loaves of Bond Bread. And, in order to
package these cards inside the bread loaves, their four corners were die-cut beveled (or ROUNDED). This set includes major rookie (or 1st) cards of Yogi Berra, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner, Stan Musial, Jackie
Robinson and Bobby Thomson. Major Stars include Joe DiMaggio, Bob Feller, and Ted Williams. Since 33 players (of the 44 BB cards) in this set are from NYC and Boston teams, this set is thought of as
a regional issue; however, Bond Bread was marketed nationwide and these cards were available as far west as St Louis.
A controversy has existed in the hobby regarding the very available SQUARE corner versions of these original cards. My findings are....The ROUNDED cards are the real originals printed and issued in 1947....and they are tough to find. The SQUARE cards fall into two categories...... (1) A second printing of only 24 of these BB cards was done when the manufacturer issued a Movie Star set sometime in the 1950's.
(2) These same 24 BB players were again REPRINTED on inferior cardboard stock (date unknown, but before their big FIND in the early 1980's). In any event, the SQUARE cards are not to be regarded as the original 1947 issue. However, Grading Cos. are grading them and erroneously labeling them as "1947 Homogenized Bond Bread".

Buyers beware....these SQUARE cards are not the real "rookies".
TED Z”

From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum- Mar 23, 2009#8:

“At some point a quarter-century or more ago Festberg either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards that featured Brooklyn Dodgers for the most part, as I recall. He sold either the whole set (24 cards or something) or the Jackie Robinson individually, as I recall. Festberg was a major player in the early days of the modern collecting (post-Topps monopoly) era, but when I hear David Festberg, I think” "Homogenized Bread."

Did you notice no mention of a warehouse find of cards. What does it say: “either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards.”

Then there is this, posted From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum Oct 30, 2007#33- by Ted Z.
“I asked David this back in the early 1980's (when he was involved with the warehouse find of these cards); but, I don't think he had a clue. The last time I saw David was several years ago at the Ft Washington Show. Does any one know where he is, lately?” TED Z

I wonder what the heck Ted Z was talking about when he said, “I don't think he had a clue.” It sounds like Ted Z was saying David Festberg did not know anything about a warehouse find. What did Ted Z know about the Festberg cards that he never posted in his now famous thread.
There is this theory that David Festberg never found a warehouse find of Bond Bread cards, it was just his stash of cards he had acquired in some unscrupulous manner. The warehouse find story was made up to cover up the truth. The story goes like this: in the 1980, David Festherg discovered Bond Bread cards in a warehouse in New Jersey. But there are now many questions about how and when David Festherg discovered the cards, if he did discover the cards at all.

There is no evidence of a warehouse find, but talk. Many people now believe that story is a myth to cover up where David Festherg did get the cards. We are to believe that the cards were put up in a New Jersey warehouse until David found them. We are to believe that the square Bond Breads cards were from the handouts Aarco printed. Do you believe that Aarco would pick a warehouse in New Jersey to hold the cards when they were in Chicago. What sense would it make for Aarco to hold their stock of cards in New Jersey and sell them to retailers out of that location.

Think about this: It is believed they were stored away, and Aarco would sell sets of cards to the companies who would purchase handouts from their stock of cards, all that stopped circa 1960s. Then somehow this stock of cards found there way to a warehouse in New Jersey only to be discovered in 1980 by David Festherg:

None of this passes the smell test: What does the above article say? Net54 baseball.com: From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum- Mar 23, 2009#8: “At some point a quarter-century or more ago Festberg either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards.

There was no talk about a warehouse find in 1984. In fact by Ted Z there was talk about a warehouse find in 2007. So when did the warehouse find become talk…It appears around 2007, the time of Ted Z post:

What does this mean for collectors, that the waters are muddied around David Festberg. The muddied waters suggest all kinds of theories. None more annoying than a 1947 or later printing of the squared corner cards.
But we have proof that both the squared corners Bond Bread cards and The David Festberg cards were printed in 1947. As for the rest we will just have to wait and see if any new information comes forward. What story do you believe? The warehouse find, or, that he acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto…viva acquired in some unscrupulous manner.

But wait… you know who else was selling square corner cards around the same time as David Festherg? The Baseball card society and thanks to butchie_t we know what they were offering. Butch was kind enough to provide scans of his cards and the letters he received from BCS. There might be a clue as to where and how David Festherg was selling his cards. My theory is he did not find them in a warehouse or acquired them in an unscrupulous manner, he purchased them from a widow's dealer who had a big collection- no colossal collection of square corner cards we call Bond Bread. More to come, John.

[Johnphotoman]

Is it true that SGC is grading square Bond Bread cards again? John

[Johnphotoman]

But wait… you know who else was selling square corner cards around the same time as David Festberg? The Baseball card society (BCS) and thanks to butchie_t from net54baseball.com we know what they were offering. Butch was kind enough to provide scans of his cards and the letters he received from BCS. There might be a clue as to where and how David Festberg was selling his cards. My theory is he did not find them in a warehouse or acquired them in an unscrupulous manner, he purchased them from a widow's dealer who had a big collection- no colossal collection of square corner cards we call Bond Bread.

I believe there is a tie in between the Festberg find and the BCS cards. I kind of let the cat out of the bag…”widow’s dealer”. Let’s read from some of the letters from BCS that Butch provided: It says that BSC was offered a limited number of the very famous 1947 Homogenized Bond baseball card set. It describes the Bond Bread set, and then it says, all the baseball cards that weren’t put in bread packages were stored in a dusty warehouse, and quite literally, forgotten about when they went out of business. Many years later a famous collector discovered the cards in a warehouse and snapped up all the cards, how many it does not say, maybe 70,000 cards. but properly less.

This is just a guess, there is no real proof of how many cards there were. I have based this on press production and the paper shortage at the time and the population of baseball cards printed circa 1947. Because of the paper shortage at that time, Aarco would not take a chance on a large production of cards (population) of printed cards. For those of you who did not know - the total population of a set of baseball cards…is the total number of cards that were printed. For example the total population of 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson baseball cards was 328,592. Today the number of baseball cards produced each year (population) is about 1 to 2 million.

Let’s say they wanted to print 10,000 sets of 48 cards. It would take 10,000 sheets of paper to print 48 cards to a set for a total of 480,000 cards total. I believe it would have been less than that, say 5,000 cards set of 48 making 240,000 cards. That would take 5,000 sheets of paper. Few baseball cards were produced in the mid-1940s -1950s due to paper shortages during World War II. 240,000 cards would have been alot of cards. Production resumed in the United States in 1948, with the Bowman Gum and Leaf Candy Company releasing cards.

Now pay attention to what the BCS letter says: Ironically- he died (the dealer) a few months ago and his widow offered us (BCS) the card sets that remained. This was circa 1980s. What does it say, “offered BCS the cards that remained.

Sounds like a familiar story, warehouse find, but it ends there. Notice it says the find was by a famous collector- who snapped up all the cards. Sounds like he purchased the cards circa 1950s-1960s. The collector did not just find them sitting around, he discovered Aarco had the cards in a warehouse and offered to buy them. More or less he purchased them from Aarco and when he died circa 1980s his widow put them up for sale. Who was there to snapped up the cards, David Festberg and BCS.

It is believed that Festberg had about 20,000 cards, no clue as to how many BCS had, but I would believe no more than 5,000 - 20,000. Ok let's say David Festberg did buy his cards from this widow, notice it says BCS brough the cards that were left.

I think the story behind a David Festberg warehouse find comes from this story. Something else to look at is the BCS letter says-the 1947 Bond Bread set was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all. And that they purchased the best of the set- 24 cards in all from the dealer’s widow. The story of the Festberg cards having 24 cards to its set -come from this story as well. I believe that a famous collector brought all the Aarco cards with square corners and when he died his widow sold most of the cards to David Festberg and BCS brought the remaining cards.

Therefore the BCS and Festberg cards are the exact same cards as the 48 card set printed at the same time. This explains why they are both on the exact same paper stock. Some believe that the BCS images of 24 cards are the same on the Festberg, but we do not have a true list of names for the Festberg cards, they could easily be any of the 48 card set. We do not know how many of the 48 cards Festberg had in its set. It could have 24 ,48 or any number in the set.

We need someone who knows, someone who purchased a whole set from David Festburg to speak up. If he did sell a whole set or just individual cards. John