Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Mikehallett22]

Has anyone tried to grade any of the Festburg cards? The ones with square corners and cream colored backs. It looks like PSA wont grade them at all, and SGC grades the rounded corners and exhibits.
If you have tried grading them, what did SGC say?

[Johnphotoman]

Originally Posted by Mikehallett22

Has anyone tried to grade any of the Festburg cards? The ones with square corners and cream colored backs. It looks like PSA wont grade them at all, and SGC grades the rounded corners and exhibits.
If you have tried grading them, what did SGC say?

Mikehallett22: Great question. But first let me say- The Festburg cards are on ivory/beige paper stock. The round corner Bond Bread cards, the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread are cream in color. My research has shown that the square corner cards circa 1947-are on ivory/beige paper stock, that's including the Festburg cards.

While grading companies don’t grade square cards anymore, many reasons are given as to why. The problem is they are stuck in the past. They are stuck in their old ways, same old same old ways of looking at cards and not taking any new information into account. I believe they do not know what to look for. They can grade the appearance and quality of the card, but will not say anything about the origins of the cards. This is because of past guarding issues. In the past they have given circa dates from 1947-1950, have called them Bond Bread cards to an unknown issues.

I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes by some of the top grading companies. I believe this is the reason, they are not up to date on what to look for, therefore they just will not grade square corner cards. Maybe just maybe- they were called out on the obvious fakes that they graded over the early years and refuse to grade cards they are not sure about.

Well I say do you homework. I do not use grading companies, for one I hate the slabs they come in: But if you are in it for the money and not the fun…then you want your cards to be graded. And we as collectors want these companies to grade the square corner cards again, this can be done, we just need to set up guidelines. Call them-“Previously called Bond Bread, square corner cards, circa 1940s-1949 and grade appearance and quality of the card.

What we do know about the Bond Bread cards and the look alike squared cornered cards is that both were issued circa 1947, that is the general consensus now: Of course there are fake cards that were reprinted or copied circa 1950 to date. But that is the caveat of those cards, we can tell them apart from the real issues cards in 1947.

I don't understand why most vintage card collectors and Grading Companies remain highly skeptical towards these square corner cards, deeming them little more than fakes. Again yes there are fakes, but to call all square corner cards fakes or some kind of reprint, is wrong.

The problem is that many of these Grading companies claim the square cards are fakes or reprints. Others don't grade Bond Bread at all, because someone could take a square-corned (reprint) and round the corners and try to pass it off as an original.

That last part is total BS, if they did their homework, they would know that the square corner cards are on different paper stock then the round corner cards. If you take a square card and cut the corners…all you have is a square card with rounded corners. No way, that card would not pass off for a Bond Bread card if the card grader did his homework. Now in the past someone might fall for such a thing. But there is no way a trained card grader should be taken in; unless they grade the same old same old way. The information is out there to take in and grade square cornered cards in this age. Why not do so?

Below I show two cards, it’s hard to really see the color difference when posting on a computer screen that's because you do not see the true color of the cards. The first card is a true Bond Bread card, the second is a square corner card: I rounded the corners to look like a Bond Bread card. The backs show the one I rounded is a fake.

The first: A true Bond Bread card, on cream white paper stock. Second card:Fake, squared card, I cornered. On ivory/ beige paper stock. Third card: Bond Bread on left, fake on the right: There is no way a fake square card made to look like a round corner card will pass off as a true Bond Bread card. Fourth card: Bond Bread on bottom. Fake card on top. As you can see, taking a square corner card and rounding the corners will not pass as a Bond Bread card- if you know what to look for. It is best to have a card you know is Bond Bread and use that card to compare other cards too. John

[butchie_t]

Fake is certainly an interesting tag line here.

I will agree that fake can be used in conversation about the square cards being 'fake' Bond Bread Cards.

That is where the 'fake' monicker stops for me.

Now, lets move on to what is probably more closer to fact then fake. The square cards are more than likely circa late 40's.

They were more than likely printed from proofs? that were also used for the Bond Bread Cards. The similarities are just too strong to ignore out of hand.

Who printed them? Pretty damned good chance it was Aarco that printed them.

And I believe it fair to say they ended up in the Sports Star Subjects Sets. This for me, is the missing link.

Michael Fried had a great deal of data and conversations between net54 posters here and then went dark. I have reached out to him regarding this thread and to weigh back into it. But no reply from him.

Ted Z. was very adamant in their conversations but I am now of the opinion that Ted did not have all the facts either. That is fine, he remembered the cards as he did and was not inclined to engage in a different aspect of the origins of these cards.

So, here we are today. I believe John has put in a great deal of legwork to at least readdress the conversation as to where these cards belong in the hobby.

I believe they do belong in the hobby and not as fakes. Even some of the larger catalogs refer to the 'square cornered' cards. So it is not like they just showed up one day in the late 80's from out of the blue.

They were 'there' long before that and were rediscovered by someone.


I know there are many here that have information regarding this topic and I beg of you to weigh in with your thoughts. Wouldn't it be great to add another group of cards to the larger cataloging of cards.

These cards need a cataloged home. And not as a fake set of cards either.


Butch Turner

[Johnphotoman]

Butch, thank you, but I believe everyone here has put in a lot work, and if we can get people to weigh in and comment it would be of great help, no matter how big or small the subject might be. Any contribution is with looking over, ask questions and make statements, someone will be able to give an answer. John

[Johnphotoman]

First card, the only squared corner-graded card I have, printed on Ivory/Beige paper stock.

Second set of cards is Bond Bread squared, on ivory/beige paper stock and a Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects- bright white paper stock.

The third set is Wildman & Son "Screen Star Subjects on ivory/beige paper stock and Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects, bright white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners).

Match those cards against the ones posted in above thread 168. Bond Bread is on cream white paper stock and the fake card I made paper stock matches the Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subject cards and The Wildman & Son Screen Star Subjects are on Ivory/Beige paper stock.

John

[Johnphotoman]

Could use some help with this one, how about some homework? List the original 48 card Bond Bread set and the career dates of each sports star, When career began and ending, and what years they played for each team. Does anyone know if we have this information on the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. If so, can you make a list? John

[Johnphotoman]

Relevant to our conversation here, there is another post Ted Z posted in.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...Bread+packages Ted Z post# 2-Fresh out of the Bond Bread packages, the corners of these cards were always Rounded:

Quote Ted Z: “A 2nd printing of the original 48 cards of the Bond Bread issues 1947 were available in stores in 1949 - 1950. These Square cards were sold over-the-counter in packages of 12 cards each.”

“......Date unknown, 24 of these cards were re-printed (circa 1980, a warehouse find of these cards occurred). These re-printed cards were produced with inferior cardboard stock and are clearly distinguishable from the above two original issues by their "cream-colored" backs.”

The evidence suggests something totally different. The cards sold over the counter in boxes of 12 were being sold circa 1940s-1950s, and they had die-cut corners on bright paper stock. Sold as Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects among others names. There were 4 boxes of 12 cards each, making a 48 card set. Printed and issued by Aarco Playing Card Company. As you know by now Bond Bread did not print their own set of cards, they use Aarco Playing Card company for that. What Aarco did was use some of the exact same images from the 48 card set of Sports Star Subjects, on the Bond Bread cards. They added new images in 1947, (new sports stars), everything stayed the same, except the paper stock; Aarco printed the Bond Bread cards on cream white paper stock, maybe at the request of Bond Bread, but my guess is it was done so you could tell the sets apart.

Understand there were not square cards in the boxes from Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects, they were all die-cut. Stay with me, the exact same set as Bond Bread cards were printed with square corners in 1947: The best evidence suggests by Aarco Playing Card Company. You see they had the rights, license to print the images on the cards. The theory is at the same time Bond Bread approached Aarco to print trading cards; other companies did the same. Aarco printed and produced the square corner cards for handouts / gave away as a promotional item.

What took place was two versions of the exact same set were printed and issued in 1947, one set for bond Bread with die-cut corners, the other set square corner cards were for handouts, by anyone who wanted to promote their business by giving away trading cards. This theory comes from people who had first hand knowledge, people who I talked to personally.

Myth, there is no evidence suggesting a reprint circa 1980s, warehouse find. In fact there is no evidence of any reprint of the Aarco cards we call Bond Bread. The evidence says the warehouse find was printed circa 1947 (as handouts). It is believed they were stored away, and Aarco would sell set of cards to the companies who would purchase handouts from their stock of cards, somehow this stock of cards found there way to a warehouse in New Jersey only to be discovered in 1980 by David Festherg: If that is were he did discover the cards, many questions about how and when David Festherg discovered the cards.

The two original issue sets Ted Z was talking about (1947 and 1949) one 1947 issues had round corners and 1949 issues had squared corners; according to Ted Z, and both were printed on cream paper stock. NO! Totally wrong, only the Bond Bread cards were, the Sports Star Subjects cards were printed on bright white paper stock with round corners. On top of that…only Bond Bread was printed in 1947, as for the Sports Stars card… circa 1940-1950s. Now for the 1980 warehouse find (Festberg) was on different paper stock. In fact all square cards like the Festberg cards were all printed on the same paper stock Ivory/beige, circa 1947. John.

Images below First sets of cards - Bond Bread on top, Sports Star Subjects on bottom. Backs of cards: Left side Bond Bread top, bottom left Sports Star Subjects. Sports Star Subjects top right bottom right Bond Bread. Understand I lasted the backs of the cards in a different order then the front.