1957 Topps 4th Series Double Prints?

[metroac]

I recently started to build a 1957 Topps set and I'm confused about the supposedly scarce 4th Series. I found a couple of online checklists that show 21 cards from that series as having been double printed. I've looked for photos of uncut sheets, and I've seen sheets of 55, 110 and 121 cards, which I think must have started out as 132 card sheets of 12 rows of 11 cards.

However, the only sheets I've seen are of the 1st Series, and they include Williams #1, Mantle #95, and the League Presidents #100. I haven't seen any 4th or 5th Series sheets. Although Topps designated the first four Series as containing 88 cards each, it's clear from photos of the 1st Series sheets that the printing sheets don't match up with the "series" as listed on the checklist cards.

Does anyone know whether the 21 cards in the tough 4th Series were really double printed? Were there really 22? Were the rows duplicated? Were they added as filler to the 5th Series (which only has 55 cards)?. 55 cards is 5 rows of 11, which dovetails with the 110 card, 10 row sheets, so the 5th Series could be printed twice on a sheet of 110. If Topps printed in 132 card sheets, the 5th Series might have two sets of 55 (that is, cards 353-407) plus 22 (two horizontal rows) 4th Series double prints?

Does anyone know? Any speculations?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by metroac

I recently started to build a 1957 Topps set and I'm confused about the supposedly scarce 4th Series. I found a couple of online checklists that show 21 cards from that series as having been double printed. I've looked for photos of uncut sheets, and I've seen sheets of 55, 110 and 121 cards, which I think must have started out as 132 card sheets of 12 rows of 11 cards.

However, the only sheets I've seen are of the 1st Series, and they include Williams #1, Mantle #95, and the League Presidents #100. I haven't seen any 4th or 5th Series sheets. Although Topps designated the first four Series as containing 88 cards each, it's clear from photos of the 1st Series sheets that the printing sheets don't match up with the "series" as listed on the checklist cards.

Does anyone know whether the 21 cards in the tough 4th Series were really double printed? Were there really 22? Were the rows duplicated? Were they added as filler to the 5th Series (which only has 55 cards)?. 55 cards is 5 rows of 11, which dovetails with the 110 card, 10 row sheets, so the 5th Series could be printed twice on a sheet of 110. If Topps printed in 132 card sheets, the 5th Series might have two sets of 55 (that is, cards 353-407) plus 22 (two horizontal rows) 4th Series double prints?

Does anyone know? Any speculations?

Generally, I would not expect an 88 card series to have any DP's as they could print it three times across the 264 card press sheets (the 132 subject sheets are actually half-sheets). The press runs vs. the checklist cards often don't match up as Topps tended to "preview" some cards from the next series by truncating each checklist card then trued things up at the end.

I believe from 1957 to 1959 Topps was undecided each spring if they would issue a "high" series or not, although they always did.

[Cliff Bowman]

#266 Ken Kuhn is the 22nd DP, if those 22 cards are actually DP's.

[Kevvyg1026]

This series should be an 88 card print series, running from 265 to 352. There shouldn't be any SPs or DPs.

UCS 1957 Topps Mid Series_series_4.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

I ran the numbers on some of these "DP's" on eBay and there is no evidence of them being DP's. Here are some current eBay quantities of the "DP" commons versus current eBay quantities of other commons in the series:

DP Kuhn - 59
DP O'Connell - 41
DP Bouchee - 77
DP Dittmer - 99
DP Bolger - 106
DP Esposito 98
DP Pilarcik - 99
DP Surkont - 105
DP Collins - 82
DP D Johnson - 72

Non DP commons in 4th Series

Dick Hall - 112
Fernandez 90
Harmon 81
Crimian 94
Klippstein - 71
Klaus 78
Lepcio - 103
Gail Harris 131
Jim Davis - 74
Collum - 90

I have no idea why those 22 cards in those two rows are considered DP's, there is zero evidence when they are compared to the other six rows in quantities.

[Kevvyg1026]

In addition to the series 1 uncut material, I have seen a series 2 almost complete slit, a six card panel from series 3, but unfortunately, nothing from series 5.

[metroac]

Thanks for sharing the photos of the 4th Series sheets. I suspected that their had to be a 22nd "double print," and the photos nail it down. That said, I agree that there is little likelihood that these are double prints at all. I notice that the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards doesn't list any of the cards as having been double printed.

[toppcat]

Some early information on DP's and SP's were derived from "tabulation data" methods, which was literally opening up a vending box and seeing what patterns emerged, which was often skewed as Topps distribution was horrible. Other data was determined when only the 132 card half sheets were known, i.e. before the 264 full press sheets had been identified in the hobby.

Between eBay and PSA pop counts (to a degree) DP's and SP's are pretty much established these days from the 1957-72 sets issued in series.

[Kevvyg1026]

here are some series 3 uncut materials I found

1957_series_3_panmel_2.jpg

1957_series_3.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Other data was determined when only the 132 card half sheets were known, i.e. before the 264 full press sheets had been identified in the hobby.

You nailed it on why those two rows were believed to be DP's for years. I was looking at the partial slit that Kevin posted last night and it occured to me where the belief that those two rows are DP's came from. When these 1957 sheets were introduced into the hobby in the late 90's I imagine very few collectors knew that Topps made 264 card super sheets that were two 132 card slits for each series from the mid 50's to the early 70's. The partial slit Kevin posted has those two rows printed twice so it was assumed that they must be double printed. They didn't realize that there were two more rows also printed twice on that slit and that there was an equal number of sheets that had the other four rows printed twice on it. The first slit is missing the Goodman row and the Klaus row at the top and the second slit is missing the Phillips row, Miksis row, Senators Team row, and Harris row at the top.

[toppcat]

A little known fact is that the uncut 1957 sheets featured in the contemporary SCD articles when they were found, were "reconstructed" for the images used in the article. A lot had damage, like my panel from the find, so Krause manipulated images to show intact sheets. The makeup was correct in terms of the arrays but the larger sheets imaged were essentially fantasy pieces. I'll attach some of the SCD pieces in the next message.

Here is an old e-mail I got from Solomon Cramer (when he ran those great auctions of his) detailing this:

[toppcat]

1957 Topps find per SCD.

[metroac]

A small section of a Second Series sheet, but it's got big Klu.

[ALR-bishop]

Worked with a woman who went to high school with Kluszewski and gave her one of his 57 cards. She was pretty happy with it