Richie Allen and Dave Parker.

[packs]

I don’t think Lester makes it. He’s in the Tim Hudson class for me. Not appreciated enough but also I don’t think HOF worthy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I don’t think Lester makes it. He’s in the Tim Hudson class for me. Not appreciated enough but also I don’t think HOF worthy.

A lot of pitchers feel like that to me. David Wells, Frank Tanana, Dennis Martinez, Kevin Brown, Billy Pierce. All with more wins I believe.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? Other than his BA being a little on the low side, he had strong offensive numbers to that point to go along with the defense.

Looks like the Braves saw the writing on the wall. The B.A. was getting worse and the strikeout to walk ratio wasn't getting any better.

Signed with the Dodgers, he showed up 20 lb's overweight to camp, promptly messed up his knee and was never the same again. He wasn't even a valuable defender after that 2007 Age 30 season anymore. He was an OK platoon guy for a couple teams, but that's about it.

He did do ok for a couple seasons in Japan after he left the Yanks, but even they didn't want him playing the outfield. He was basically a 1B/DH guy over there.

[Mike D.]

I was expecting Dick Allen to make it, but I admit Parker surprised me a bit. Parker is an interesting mix of peak with some longevity (2,700+ hits).

Sad to see Tiant now make it. One thing I realized this time around is that every committee is a completely new group of voters, so there's no "momentum" from vote to vote (like you may see with the BBWAA).

It'll be interesting to see who gets nominated for the Post-1980 ballot next year. Evans and Whitaker? Steroids guys? Kenny Lofton? Kevin Brown? or the same short-career, high peak guys as last time?


The Dave Parker Rookie Card: The 1974 Topps Card Of Baseball’s Latest Hall Of Famer

Dick Allen Elected To The Baseball Hall Of Fame

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tiant may end up being Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey, just destined not to make it? I think Reuschel has a Bobby Grich problem -- yeah, we see your WAR and it easily qualifies you, but we just don't think you were all that great.

The problem is there is nothing besides WAR that says he has a case for HOF. 214 wins, 3.37 ERA = 114 ERA+, 26 shutouts, 2015 Ks, 1.275 WHIP, 5.1 K/9, 3x AS, 0.63 Cy Young shares. That is why he received 2 votes on a ballot with Sutton, Niekro, Kaat and John finishing in the top 10 and Tiant 15th.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by packs

I don’t think Lester makes it. He’s in the Tim Hudson class for me. Not appreciated enough but also I don’t think HOF worthy.

I think if he gets in then it will be his postseason record that pushed him over the edge. But he is more of an Veterans Committee if he gets in but he should at least stick around on the ballot like Buehrle has.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? .

He got way out of shape.

[btcarfagno]

I don't understand why Bob Johnson gets no love for the HOF.

Only player in baseball history (with a career long enough to be eligible for the HOF) to have an OPS+ of 125 or higher in every single year of his career from rookie to final year.

Career OPS+ of 139

27 year old rookie who managed to have over 1200 runs and RBI and 2000 hits.

90 or more RBI in 10 of his 13 major league seasons including 8 of 100 or more (7 in a row).

7x all star probably should have been 9 or 10x based on season totals of years he didn't make it.

Walked more than he struck out in his career, including 10 years of 75+ walks

Led league in left fielder putouts 6 times and assists 8 times.

Is in top 100 hitters all time in many offensive metrics including (for thise who feel this is not a compliment for getting in the HOF, there are now 193 "hitters" in the Hall, so top 100 is pretty much top half of current hall of famers):

OBP 97th
OPS 73rd
Walks 92nd
Adjusted OPS+ 96th
Adjusted batting runs 82nd
Adjusted batting wins 85th
Base out runs added 90th
Situational wins added 79th
Base out wins added 90th
rOBA 65th
RBAT+ 98th
Left fielder putouts 12th
Left fielder assists 6th

JAWS has him as the 20th best Left fielder of all time. Ahead of:


Ralph Kiner
Joe Kelley
Jim Rice
Heinie Manush
Lou Brock

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I don't understand why Bob Johnson gets no love for the HOF.

Absolutely agree with you on that one.

Allen is a solid pick at 3B; his numbers put him right in the middle of the pack. Parker I am lukewarm on. Seems like a case of wasted potential; he was a god for the latter half of the 1970s but free-fell after that. Coke will do that.

Thread needs something...





That feels better.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Garvey snubbed again. Unreal.

In my mind, Garvey’s mistake was all that BS with his personal life that caused his support on the writer’s ballot essentially to implode back in the 90’s and 00’s for a while when he was fresher in everyone’s collective memories. Once he moved on to the various iterations of the VC and “era” committees, sabermetrics had become a thing, and his shortcomings in certain career stats to me at least anyway seemed a lot more obvious.

For starters before you even get to that, he’s a 1B with less than 300 career HR. Most typical HOF 1B have power figures way beyond that. Only 38 career WAR and a .329 OBP don’t help him much either.

If it were up to me, I’d put him in; I’m for a (slightly anyway) “larger” Hall. Garvey certainly has the hardware accolades (An MVP, 10x AS, 4 GG, an AS MVP, an LCS MVP…) and there is at least a decent argument that he was the best 1B in the majors in the 1970’s. The problem though is now it’s been so long that he is getting that reputation as “best player not in the HOF” - which ironically before him seemed to be a distinction held forever by Gil Hodges. I don’t know if he overcomes that or not. It would seem to make sense that he would eventually, but who knows.


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[rats60]

I don't understand why Al Oliver doesn't get more love from the Hall of Fame voters. He is top 100 in real categories. 2743 hits 58th all time, 4083 total bases 83rd all time, 529 doubles 43rd all time 1326 RBIs 100th all time.

His last series, he hit .375 in the 1985 ALCS. He won game 2 with a walk off single in the bottom of the 10th and game 4 with a 2-run double in the top of the 9th in a 3-1 win. Both hits were off Royals closer Dan Quisenberry. Then the Blue Jays and everyone else colluded to not sign Oliver in 1986.

Oliver received a 680k settlement that illegally ended his career prematurely. However, that doesn't make up for being denied the honor of joining the 3000 hit club and the Hall of Fame enshrinement soon after. Voters have no problem electing people who were part of the collusion, but what about the players who they damaged? Hopefully the voters allow Al Oliver to enjoy election while he is alive after what they did to Ron Santo and Dick Allen.

[packs]

For people who support Andruw Jones for the HOF, was his career all that different from Torii Hunter's?

Jones has the higher home run total, but Hunter is there at 353 with a higher career average, scored more runs, drove in more runs and has more than 2,000 hits with about the same career OPS+ (110 to 111). I also think Hunter was a productive player for almost the entirety of his career whereas Jones left a lasting memory of a guy who burned out.

Jones won 10 gold gloves to Hunter's 9. But I don't see a lot of support for Hunter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

In my mind, Garvey’s mistake was all that BS with his personal life that caused his support on the writer’s ballot essentially to implode back in the 90’s and 00’s for a while when he was fresher in everyone’s collective memories. Once he moved on to the various iterations of the VC and “era” committees, sabermetrics had become a thing, and his shortcomings in certain career stats to me at least anyway seemed a lot more obvious.

For starters before you even get to that, he’s a 1B with less than 300 career HR. Most typical HOF 1B have power figures way beyond that. Only 38 career WAR and a .329 OBP don’t help him much either.

If it were up to me, I’d put him in; I’m for a (slightly anyway) “larger” Hall. Garvey certainly has the hardware accolades (An MVP, 10x AS, 4 GG, an AS MVP, an LCS MVP…) and there is at least a decent argument that he was the best 1B in the majors in the 1970’s. The problem though is now it’s been so long that he is getting that reputation as “best player not in the HOF” - which ironically before him seemed to be a distinction held forever by Gil Hodges. I don’t know if he overcomes that or not. It would seem to make sense that he would eventually, but who knows. Not starting until age 27 obviously hurt Bob Johnson, and probably doom him forever to hall of very good.


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I think maybe Garvey initially suffered because of his personal baggage and now it's pretty easy to make the No case based on advanced metrics. But there's no denying that in the day, the consensus was that he was an elite player, and there is certainly support for that perception, including 6 straight 200 hit seasons.

[Beercan collector]

It’s not The Baseball Hall Of Fame
It’s the BBWAA hall of fame
If Al Oliver could have stayed with Pitt long enough to be part of media-loving
“We are family” champs he’d probably be in there with Parker .

BBWAA probably view him as a trouble maker (like the determined Allen
or “scary “Jim Rice who had to wait 15 ballots ) - He’ll probably get in via the veterans after he has passed away .
Perhaps 4 time batting champ Bill Madlock can make it .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not starting until age 27 obviously hurt Bob Johnson a lot.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think maybe Garvey initially suffered because of his personal baggage and now it's pretty easy to make the No case based on advanced metrics. But there's no denying that in the day, the consensus was that he was an elite player, and there is certainly support for that perception, including 6 straight 200 hit seasons.

Exactly. I was born in ‘77, but even as a fairly little kid in mid-80’s, I knew who Steve Garvey was.

In fact, he was a main part of the sub-theme (baseball, and baseball cards) in the movie “Mask” with Cher and Eric Stolz. I vividly remember a ‘74 Topps Garvey in that movie, and of course the ‘55 and ‘56 Brooklyn Dodger cards that Rocky had up on his wall in his room. By the time I saw this movie, I was already buying Topps packs, but I’m sure it did quite a lot to aid in my burgeoning interest in vintage cards.

It’s always interesting when someone is superstar good for a period of time, but in some way falls short on their career. I hope Steve gets in one day.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Not like he had a short peak though. He made 10 all star teams including 8 in a row, and batted over .280 12 times.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not starting until age 27 obviously hurt Bob Johnson a lot.

His minor league numbers were not all that good at ages 23 or 24. By age 25 and 26 he was tearing up the PCL though. He also could have stayed around a bit longer. Had 5 homers and .283 batting average in PCL in just 145 at bats at age 42 three years after his last major league at bat. Hit .326 the next year in B level ball, walking more than twice as much as he struck out.

Just think he is worthy of a discussion from those who make those decisions.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

His minor league numbers were not all that good at ages 23 or 24. By age 25 and 26 he was tearing up the PCL though. He also could have stayed around a bit longer. Had 5 homers and .283 batting average in PCL in just 145 at bats at age 42 three years after his last major league at bat. Hit .326 the next year in B level ball, walking more than twice as much as he struck out.

Just think he is worthy of a discussion from those who make those decisions.

His stats also benefited from playing full seasons throughout the war years against notably depleted competition.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

His stats also benefited from playing full seasons throughout the war years against notably depleted competition.

Mel Ott
Joe Medwick
Lou Boudreau
Rick Ferrell
Bobby Doerr (in military only 1945)
Ernie Lombardi
Hal Newhouser

Wasn't a problem for them.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Most of Bob Johnson’s highest ranking stats that have been mentioned are primarily a result of high walk totals based on his plate appearances per season and career. Walks aren’t nearly as impressive to me as hits and extra base hits where you have the ability to drive in more runs, not just get on base to score them. Don’t really think he deserves to be in the Hall and very little support for him over the years, that’s probably why.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Most of Bob Johnson’s highest ranking stats that have been mentioned are primarily a result of high walk totals based on his plate appearances per season and career. Walks aren’t nearly as impressive to me as hits and extra base hits where you have the ability to drive in more runs, not just get on base to score them. Don’t really think he deserves to be in the Hall and very little support for him over the years, that’s probably why.

He drove in 100 runs or more seven years in a row. I think he did just fine with the extra base hits and driving in the runs.

He averaged 60 extra base hits per year over his entire career.

[btcarfagno]

I definitely understand the arguments against him and they are valid for sure. He just seems to be someone who deserves a pretty long conversation.

Had he come to the majors at age 26 instead of 27, he would have been one of only 9 players in major league history with 400 doubles 100 triples and 300 home runs. And he would have reached 1300 runs and 1300 RBI.

I know it's just a hypothetical. But he was that close.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Most of Bob Johnson’s highest ranking stats that have been mentioned are primarily a result of high walk totals based on his plate appearances per season and career. Walks aren’t nearly as impressive to me as hits and extra base hits where you have the ability to drive in more runs, not just get on base to score them. Don’t really think he deserves to be in the Hall and very little support for him over the years, that’s probably why.

He had 1283 RBIs with only 2051 hits and had an OPS+ of 139. For his career, he hit .306 with an OPS of .931 with runners in scoring position. Seems like he did a pretty good job at driving in runs regardless of how many walks he had.

[btcarfagno]

And on a personal note, he is of Native American heritage. Would love to get us some more representation in the Hall.

[D. Bergin]

Bob Johnson always fascinated me also. Gotta imagine if he'd been found by MLB just a couple years earlier, he'd have been in the Hall of Fame long ago.

Similar trajectory to Albert Belle, just at different ages. WAR likes Bob Johnson a bit better though. Probably due to his defensive metrics, slightly better walk rate and the fact he wasn't competing against a bunch of swollen PED monsters for statistical comparisons, even though he did still play in an offensively favorable era.

[sports-cards-forever]

Great arguments on Bob Johnson. I wouldn't have thought of him.

Albert Belle definitely deserves another look now that Dick Allen and Dave Parker got in.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

He followed his brother Roy (no slouch either) into baseball late, likely accounting for his older major league debut. I always thought, as a complete ballplayer on mostly atrocious teams he gets overlooked. Put him on the Yankees, or even a good team from the era like the Tigers, Red Sox or Indians and I think he might already be in.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

He followed his brother Roy (no slouch either) into baseball late, likely accounting for his older major league debut. I always thought, as a complete ballplayer on mostly atrocious teams he gets overlooked. Put him on the Yankees, or even a good team from the era like the Tigers, Red Sox or Indians and I think he might already be in.

I absolutely agree. Can you imagine what his runs scored and RBI would look like with better hitters before and after him in the lineup? I mean, the guy led the American League in OPS as a 38 year old with Bobby Doerr and not much else around him in the Red Sox lineup.

His 1936-1942 Philadelphia A's teams were absolutely abysmal. They were at 53-55 wins per year in all but one, where they managed 64. Over that seven year period he averaged 97 runs scored, 107 RBI, 62 extra base hits, batting average of .298 and an OPS+ of 138. As basically the only guy in the lineup who could do damage.

I think the guy needs a second look from the committee and I will be reaching out to the committee members to request just that.