T206 Wagner in Canada

[samosa4u]

I'm a member of a few Facebook card groups. Majority of posts made in these groups are just crap and a waste of my time, but sometimes I'll see an interesting post here and there. One of the things I love doing is talking to old-timers about how the hobby was like before I was born. I love hearing things like "in 1976, I was driving down there ... he punched him in the face ... I pulled it out of the pack ... I got twenty-five dollars for it ... my wife threw it in the fireplace ... blah, blah, blah". I guess this is because I'm a history-freak (and why I love vintage cards so much!) Anyways, so one interesting character started posting about how he was at Angelo Savelli's house in the early 1980s, and how he almost got his T206 Honus Wagner in a trade. However, Angelo later changed his mind and backed out. And then a couple of guys were like "yeah, he still has it ... very old man he is ... blah, blah, blah." I was like "huh? A Canadian owns a T206 Wagner? I had no clue! And who the heck is Angelo Savelli?" This post just reminded me that there are so many things about our hobby that I am not aware of (even in my own country!) At the same time, I was also very proud that a Canadian owns this card!

Does anyone here know the story behind Angelo's Wagner? When did he get it and from whom? How does it look like? Isn't a PR example worth like two million USD now? And are there any other Canadians who own this card?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm a member of a few Facebook card groups. Majority of posts made in these groups are just crap and a waste of my time, but sometimes I'll see an interesting post here and there. One of the things I love doing is talking to old-timers about how the hobby was like before I was born. I love hearing things like "in 1976, I was driving down there ... he punched him in the face ... I pulled it out of the pack ... I got twenty-five dollars for it ... my wife threw it in the fireplace ... blah, blah, blah". I guess this is because I'm a history-freak (and why I love vintage cards so much!) Anyways, so one interesting character started posting about how he was at Angelo Savelli's house in the early 1980s, and how he almost got his T206 Honus Wagner in a trade. However, Angelo later changed his mind and backed out. And then a couple of guys were like "yeah, he still has it ... very old man he is ... blah, blah, blah." I was like "huh? A Canadian owns a T206 Wagner? I had no clue! And who the heck is Angelo Savelli?" This post just reminded me that there are so many things about our hobby that I am not aware of (even in my own country!) At the same time, I was also very proud that a Canadian owns this card!

Does anyone here know the story behind Angelo's Wagner? When did he get it and from whom? How does it look like? Isn't a PR example worth like two million USD now? And are there any other Canadians who own this card?

I am not sure of the answer to your main question but a PR Wags today, depending on aesthetics, would be in the 1.3M range......Pocket change for some, unfortunately not me.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm a member of a few Facebook card groups. Majority of posts made in these groups are just crap and a waste of my time, but sometimes I'll see an interesting post here and there. One of the things I love doing is talking to old-timers about how the hobby was like before I was born. I love hearing things like "in 1976, I was driving down there ... he punched him in the face ... I pulled it out of the pack ... I got twenty-five dollars for it ... my wife threw it in the fireplace ... blah, blah, blah". I guess this is because I'm a history-freak (and why I love vintage cards so much!) Anyways, so one interesting character started posting about how he was at Angelo Savelli's house in the early 1980s, and how he almost got his T206 Honus Wagner in a trade. However, Angelo later changed his mind and backed out. And then a couple of guys were like "yeah, he still has it ... very old man he is ... blah, blah, blah." I was like "huh? A Canadian owns a T206 Wagner? I had no clue! And who the heck is Angelo Savelli?" This post just reminded me that there are so many things about our hobby that I am not aware of (even in my own country!) At the same time, I was also very proud that a Canadian owns this card!

Does anyone here know the story behind Angelo's Wagner? When did he get it and from whom? How does it look like? Isn't a PR example worth like two million USD now? And are there any other Canadians who own this card?

Very interesting story, I'd suspect that there's cases similar to this across America/Canada. Collections, with high value cards, not graded, that are held by people in there 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. While I can't speak for the Wagner, I have a working theory that in 10-20 years we'll see a lot of 52 Mantle's start hitting the market. All freshly graded, because of people passing away or getting too old and having no family to hand it down to.

[x2drich2000]

An extremely quick search came up with this info in the Orlando Sentinel from Feb 1988.

"WHAT A CARD. Angelo Savelli is a classic addict. To get his fix, the 50- year-old retired Canadian steel worker will pay almost any price, trade almost anything he owns. The genial man is not hooked on drugs. His unquenchable passion is bubble gum cards. For more than 40 years, Savelli has collected baseball cards; football cards, too. And hockey, boxing, wrestling, basketball and even lacrosse cards. He also holds precious old cards from the 1800s and some almost unfindable cards such as the 1909 Honus Wagner, worth as much as $50,000. Savelli's collection fills three rooms."

Link - Note: very ad heavy

[oldjudge]

Three auction houses have probably already started looking for him.

[Fred]

hahahaha... probably very true...

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Three auction houses have probably already started looking for him.

I know him very well and it’s long gone.


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[irv]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

An extremely quick search came up with this info in the Orlando Sentinel from Feb 1988.

"WHAT A CARD. Angelo Savelli is a classic addict. To get his fix, the 50- year-old retired Canadian steel worker will pay almost any price, trade almost anything he owns. The genial man is not hooked on drugs. His unquenchable passion is bubble gum cards. For more than 40 years, Savelli has collected baseball cards; football cards, too. And hockey, boxing, wrestling, basketball and even lacrosse cards. He also holds precious old cards from the 1800s and some almost unfindable cards such as the 1909 Honus Wagner, worth as much as $50,000. Savelli's collection fills three rooms."

Link - Note: very ad heavy

Another quick Google search got me these, Angelo Savelli, "The King of Cards"
Looks like he had/does have some nice stuff!
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...sclient=psy-ab

[darwinbulldog]

I believe there was also a Canadian athlete of some sort who used to own one of them. I wanna say curling. Or maybe ice hockey. I don't really follow Canadian sports.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe there was also a Canadian athlete of some sort who used to own one of them. I wanna say curling. Or maybe ice hockey. I don't really follow Canadian sports.

Cute.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe there was also a Canadian athlete of some sort who used to own one of them. I wanna say curling. Or maybe ice hockey. I don't really follow Canadian sports.

That is funny... especially considering if there was no Canada, there would likely be no hockey, basketball OR football for our American friends... at least in their current context... ONLY baseball.

You're welcome

[byrone]

Hap Shaughnessy probably had one at some point

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe there was also a Canadian athlete of some sort who used to own one of them. I wanna say curling. Or maybe ice hockey. I don't really follow Canadian sports.

Oh, wait! Does he have that popular blue card from 1979/80? Is it the one that you Americans drove up to astronomical levels?

Originally Posted by clamendo

I know him very well and it’s long gone.


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Could you share a bit more info? What condition was it in? Was it sold raw? Is it graded now?

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by irv

Another quick Google search got me these, Angelo Savelli, "The King of Cards"
Looks like he had/does have some nice stuff!
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...sclient=psy-ab

Ad heavy is an understatement.

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Oh, wait! Does he have that popular blue card from 1979/80? Is it the one that you Americans drove up to astronomical levels?



Could you share a bit more info? What condition was it in? Was it sold raw? Is it graded now?

It was sold years ago to an “American”Probably, when he sold off his baseball. I’m sure it was raw. Knowing Angelo it was probably in nice shape, he was focusing on high grade before it was fashionable.


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[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by clamendo

It was sold years ago to an “American”Probably, when he sold off his baseball. I’m sure it was raw. Knowing Angelo it was probably in nice shape, he was focusing on high grade before it was fashionable.


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Nice shape, eh? Wow! He must have gotten a ton for it! On top of that, convert the US to CAD ... wooo!!

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe there was also a Canadian athlete of some sort who used to own one of them. I wanna say curling. Or maybe ice hockey. I don't really follow Canadian sports.

This is a great post. A Great One!

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by phlflyer1

This is a great post. A Great One!

It took me until this post to get we were talking about Gretzky haha

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Natswin2019

It took me until this post to get we were talking about Gretzky haha

...Who are the Gretzkys and which city do they play in ?...I don't follow Canadian stuff either.....

..

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

...Who are the Gretzkys and which city do they play in ?...I don't follow Canadian stuff either.....

..

Is it you don't follow Canadian stuff by choice?
... or you aren't intelligent enough to do so?

[paulmolive]

Sorry for reviving this old thread. Was just looking for information on Angelo. He once lived in the north end of Hamilton, Ontario and had a card shop briefly in the early 90s near his house. When I was 12 years old, I bought my first caramel and tobacco cards from him. An E95 Plank and a T206 Rube Waddell. Super nice fella. Fond memories indeed. Does anyone else in the Toronto area remember his shop? I think it was on Barton St. Can't believe he had a Wagner!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

That is funny... especially considering if there was no Canada, there would likely be no hockey, basketball OR football for our American friends... at least in their current context... ONLY baseball.

You're welcome

Ok, Hockey I get, but Basketball and Football?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, Hockey I get, but Basketball and Football?

Well, James Naismith was Canadian.


Steve

[maniac_73]

Please let’s not turn this into a Canada vs America thread. As a Canadian Collector I love my American collector friends


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[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by paulmolive

Sorry for reviving this old thread. Was just looking for information on Angelo. He once lived in the north end of Hamilton, Ontario and had a card shop briefly in the early 90s near his house. When I was 12 years old, I bought my first caramel and tobacco cards from him. An E95 Plank and a T206 Rube Waddell. Super nice fella. Fond memories indeed. Does anyone else in the Toronto area remember his shop? I think it was on Barton St. Can't believe he had a Wagner!

I never went to his shop, living in Western Canada, but I do recall reading many stories about him in the collector mags that came out in the late 80's / early 90's. He was a legend in the card game here. I recall he basically spent what he had on vintage cards. He told lots of stories on how his wife was patient, but frustrated with him. That is until he started moving some of his stuff.

A name from the past...

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, James Naismith was Canadian.


Steve

Yes, but he had to come to the United States to 'invent' the game as the Canadians could only understand a netted stick with a ball (the official national game) or a stick with a puck. Bouncing a ball was foreign to them.

Not really knocking Canada, both sides of my family landed there 350-380 years ago and I believe I am probably distantly related to Rob Blake. His middle name, being his mother's maiden name, is my last name.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Yes, but he had to come to the United States to 'invent' the game as the Canadians could only understand a netted stick with a ball (the official national game) or a stick with a puck. Bouncing a ball was foreign to them.

Not really knocking Canada, both sides of my family landed there 350-380 years ago and I believe I am probably distantly related to Rob Blake. His middle name, being his mother's maiden name, is my last name.

If Canadians "could only understand a netted stick with a ball or a stick with a puck", how did a Canadian singlehandedly invent the game of basketball?? Being on American soil suddenly altered his ability and inventiveness?

The whole "Canadians could only understand" also disagrees with the fact that baseball was played in eastern Canada before most of the western US, with teams in Ontario (London) beating American clubs in the International Association in the 1870s including Pittsburgh. Additionally, cricket in Canada - like in the US - was also the most popular game during the formative years of the nation before the advent of the modern big four sports.

You're not "knocking" Canada, but you're completely ignorant about it.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ok, Hockey I get, but Basketball and Football?

It's simple... no Canadian James Naismith, no basketball.

Regarding football, the early game played by US colleges resembled European association football (soccer) which included it's rules, with only Harvard adopting the ability to carry the ball instead of just kicking it, something only seen in rugby during the era.

Harvard famously played a two-game series against Montreal's McGill in 1874, with this the very first games of what would become modern football (the first game was played under the Harvard "Boston rules", the second one was played under McGill rules, and is the first rugby-style football game played in the United States). The Canadians also used a more oblong-shaped ball akin to a modern football, while Harvard still used basically a round "soccer" ball.

Additional important aspects were taken from the Canadian game....

"Harvard quickly took a liking to the rugby game, and its use of the try which, until that time, was not used in American football. The try would later evolve into the score known as the touchdown"

So again, without Canada, there would likely be no Hockey, basketball OR "American" football as we know them.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by byrone

Hap Shaughnessy probably had one at some point

2 - I saw them both.

[maniac_73]

We all know Hockey was invented in England not Canada right?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

We all know Hockey was invented in England not Canada right?

Field hockey, yes.
Ice hockey, no.

Of the big four North American sports, only basketball was "invented", the rest evolved from other sports...

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by paulmolive

Sorry for reviving this old thread. Was just looking for information on Angelo. He once lived in the north end of Hamilton, Ontario and had a card shop briefly in the early 90s near his house. When I was 12 years old, I bought my first caramel and tobacco cards from him. An E95 Plank and a T206 Rube Waddell. Super nice fella. Fond memories indeed. Does anyone else in the Toronto area remember his shop? I think it was on Barton St. Can't believe he had a Wagner!

What do want to know and I’ll ask him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[D. Bergin]

LOL, a throwaway joke turns into a slowburn pissing contest on Net54, a full year in the making.

Only in Americanada!

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Field hockey, yes.
Ice hockey, no.

Of the big four North American sports, only basketball was "invented", the rest evolved from other sports...

Actually I thought that Cornhole was ahead of Hockey as a Big Four Sport.
At least in the Ratings and Arena Attendance

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Actually I thought that Cornhole was ahead of Hockey as a Big Four Sport.
At least in the Ratings and Arena Attendance

You're confusing the sport with "cornholing", which is definitely more popular in the US

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, James Naismith was Canadian.


Steve

I didn't know that. Good to learn something new.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Please let’s not turn this into a Canada vs America thread. As a Canadian Collector I love my American collector friends


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We love you too, especially your OPC baseball issues.

[samosa4u]

Ohhhh Caaannnaadddaaaa ...

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Yes, but he had to come to the United States to 'invent' the game as the Canadians could only understand a netted stick with a ball (the official national game) or a stick with a puck. Bouncing a ball was foreign to them.



Not really knocking Canada, both sides of my family landed there 350-380 years ago and I believe I am probably distantly related to Rob Blake. His middle name, being his mother's maiden name, is my last name.

My maternal grandmother was born in Chicago. Her grandfather was born in the middle of nowhere Ontario(?). I couldn't believe I found him on a Canadian census.

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[vthobby]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Ohhhh Caaannnaadddaaaa ...

Is that the elusive "Barbie Red Back?



Mike

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Does anyone here know the story behind Angelo's Wagner? When did he get it and from whom? How does it look like?

Originally Posted by clamendo

It was sold years ago to an “American”Probably, when he sold off his baseball. I’m sure it was raw. Knowing Angelo it was probably in nice shape, he was focusing on high grade before it was fashionable.

Angelo Savelli bought his Honus Wagner card in the mid to late 1970's from a Hamilton coin and card dealer on the east side of James Street North near Barton Street East not far from the old CN train station. He sold the family car to raise the money for the purchase and his wife almost left him at that point!

In the late 1990's he told me that he'd compare his Honus Wagner (which he was keeping in a safety deposit box) to the one owned by Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky any time because the latter was trimmed. And it was!

Angie sold the Honus Wagner card together with the rest of his Baseball, Basketball and NFL cards to a big California dealer in 2000 or so. But he kept his Hockey, CFL and Wrestling cards.

Originally Posted by paulmolive

Was just looking for information on Angelo. He once lived in the north end of Hamilton, Ontario and had a card shop briefly in the early 90s near his house.... Does anyone else in the Toronto area remember his shop? I think it was on Barton St. Can't believe he had a Wagner!

Angie's "King of Cards" shop was on the south side of Barton Street East near Sherman Avenue North. As such it was just a few blocks northwest of Ivor Wynne Stadium where the Hamilton Tiger-Cats played. I visited his shop many times.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by byrone

Hap Shaughnessy probably had one at some point

Hap didn’t stop at 1. He printed them!!!!

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Angelo Savelli bought his Honus Wagner card in the mid to late 1970's from a Hamilton coin and card dealer on the east side of James Street North near Barton Street East not far from the old CN train station. He sold the family car to raise the money for the purchase and his wife almost left him at that point!

In the late 1990's he told me that he'd compare his Honus Wagner (which he was keeping in a safety deposit box) to the one owned by Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky any time because the latter was trimmed. And it was!

Angie sold the Honus Wagner card together with the rest of his Baseball, Basketball and NFL cards to a big California dealer in 2000 or so. But he kept his Hockey, CFL and Wrestling cards.



Angie's "King of Cards" shop was on the south side of Barton Street East near Sherman Avenue North. As such it was just a few blocks northwest of Ivor Wynne Stadium where the Hamilton Tiger-Cats played. I visited his shop many times.

Thanks for your post, fox.

He was definitely way ahead of his time. He not only went after all the "big cards," but he was diversifying as well. This is something smart collectors do today because you never know which area of the hobby is going to get hot. For example, basketball cards went insane during the pandemic and still remain expensive even to this day. Look how expensive the rookies of George Mikan, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are.

What do you remember about your time inside his store ?? What did you see in there ? Were there 1952 Topps Mantles lined up for $500 each ?? The Howe rookie (1951 Parkhurst) was probably a $10 card back then. Also, what were most people buying back then ?? What was considered "hot?"

[Leon]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Thanks for your post, fox.

He was definitely way ahead of his time. He not only went after all the "big cards," but he was diversifying as well. This is something smart collectors do today because you never know which area of the hobby is going to get hot. For example, basketball cards went insane during the pandemic and still remain expensive even to this day. Look how expensive the rookies of George Mikan, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are.

What do you remember about your time inside his store ?? What did you see in there ? Were there 1952 Topps Mantles lined up for $500 each ?? The Howe rookie (1951 Parkhurst) was probably a $10 card back then. Also, what were most people buying back then ?? What was considered "hot?"

Interesting thoughts. My main focus has never been what a cards future value will be. I have, obviously, tried to get my cards at the best deal I can, but future values haven't been what I have focused on. It's still more of "just collecting" for me. I buy and sell sometimes, but mainly, it's just collecting.
.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Leon

Interesting thoughts. My main focus has never been what a cards future value will be. I have, obviously, tried to get my cards at the best deal I can, but future values haven't been what I have focused on. It's still more of "just collecting" for me. I buy and sell sometimes, but mainly, it's just collecting.
.

They're both equally as important - the money and the collecting part. You need so much money in order to start a collection today and so we're "forced" to pay attention to the money side of it. Imagine spending thirty grand on some baseball cards and then a year later they end up being worth half that. It's gonna' hurt (even if you consider yourself only a collector).

Merry Christmas and thanks for running a great forum.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

] The Howe rookie (1951 Parkhurst) was probably a $10 card back then.

Not in the slightest. It had great value for the time, even then. Just as coveted as it is today. I'm Canadian and remember it well.

There was a store in my hometown that was famous for selling very bad fake signed cards. All with the same black Sharpie and all pathetic even to my grade school eyes. They had a Howe RC in one of those "iceberg" screw downs. This would have been around 1991. The asking price was $5K. I asked to see it. The jerk/forger begrudgingly "showed" it to me by lifting it from the shelf of the display case to the underside of the glass top. Gee, thanks. Between that move and the forgeries, I never went back. Thankfully, the place didn't last long. Scumbag.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Not in the slightest. It had great value for the time, even then. Just as coveted as it is today.

Are you talking about the late-80s here? Early-80s? 70s? I had some old-timers tell me how cheap it used to be. They also told me that Gretzky's father used to work for Bell and would give his customers a free 79/80 OPC rookie card of his son. He had a deck of them, I was told.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I edited my post. Please check out what I added. My frame of reference was the 1980's-very early 1990's. We were talking about the Gretzky/McNall Wagner, so I assumed we were all referring to that timeframe. Anyhow, all cleared up.

[samosa4u]

Ah, okay. I see it now.

I was a kid in the 90s too and remember the Howe rookie well. Beckett priced it at 3k and that's how much dealers wanted for theirs (even if they only had VG-EX copies). They called everything back then "near mint."

But Angelo had a store before then, no ?? He was buying and selling in the disco days and cards back then were really cheap. So, that's what I was asking fox about.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

But Angelo had a store before then, no ?? He was buying and selling in the disco days and cards back then were really cheap. So, that's what I was asking fox about.

No he did not. While Angie began setting up at sports card shows in the States in the 1970's, his brick and mortar store on Barton Street dated back only to 1991 or so. Here's a good article on Angie from the Hamilton Spectator:

Angelo Savelli - Hamilton Spectator; 5 April 2024

I need to scan some items for a post on my recollections of my visits to the store.