Goldin Auction - Honus Wagner “Rookie Card”

[oldjudge]

Nor does LOTG

[bcbgcbrcb]

So we think most likely only one bidder against the auction house at some point. Any idea who that bidder might be and/or at what point everyone else was out?

At first, this looks like a lost opportunity from the consignor standpoint because of the high hidden reserve. But, let’s say the second bidder was out of the running at $350K. The consignor only gets that amount then. But now, they have the card back with a $850K comp (sort of), although noted that the card did not sell. A couple of years from now, they give the card to REA/Heritage/AH. Most likely, the opening bid will be much more reasonable and interested bidders researching past offerings of the card will find the not met reserve at $850K and that number will play a significant roll in how high they are willing to go. Of course, if the item description is more honest and straightforward, that will have a huge impact as well. So, potentially, this consignor might have ended up with $350K on a card whose prior highest sale was $51K, now they are working with an unsold number of $850K. This may not be a bad decision at all by the consignor, I can see the logic in possibly getting a much bigger payday down the road and Goldin played right into it by allowing the $1MM reserve.

[Exhibitman]

How reserves may be used is a function of state law. Auctioneers located in states with less regulation are freer to do more hidden manipulation of an auction. You don't care for a particular auctioneer's policy, bitch to the state legislature.

All of the machinations have one goal: to generate 'action'. If the auction started at the reserve, there would be less action. The more bidders in an auction on an item, the more buzz it gets, the more likely others are to bid on the item. FOMO.

[calvindog]

A more important factor on whether a card is getting an unfair push in an auction is who the consigner is. An auction house may not bid on their own lots creating a fake hidden reserve, yet their consigner may be employing a myriad of accounts to push up the price of a lot. We’ve all dealt with collectors who think their cards are worth 3-5x market value and treat their cards as if it was their only asset in the world. Cards like that aren’t going cheaply or even for fair market value at an auction. When I see someone pushing a card on Net 54 in the most ridiculous manner, I’m certain to stay away from bidding on it at auction. Some people just can’t bear for the market to determine true value. If they're using sock puppet accounts here to fabricate interest or doing YouTube interviews or getting hobby publications to write about their card, you can be sure they’re getting their card hit fraudulently in the auction.

Also, if the consigner is listed in the Mastro indictment or shill bidder list as a fraudster, that may shed some light too.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

How reserves may be used is a function of state law. Auctioneers located in states with less regulation are freer to do more hidden manipulation of an auction. You don't care for a particular auctioneer's policy, bitch to the state legislature.

All of the machinations have one goal: to generate 'action'. If the auction started at the reserve, there would be less action. The more bidders in an auction on an item, the more buzz it gets, the more likely others are to bid on the item. FOMO.

Point well taken. These practices are permitted because state and local legislatures permit them. NYC has gone even further off the deep end -- https://www.huntonak.com/hunton-reta...rning-auctions

I don't know if it is because of increased state and local tax revenue these legislatures feel they will generate, or the prestige of attracting AHs to their venues, or to threats by AHs to leave venues unless certain rules are enacted, or a combination of the above, but it sickens me these practices are allowed. It is nothing less than legalized shill bidding, rationalized under the pretext that as long as the AH discloses to you (in the fine print) that they are trying to defraud you, the governing jurisdiction will not treat it as fraud even when the AH pulls it off.

I'd love to see the day some defendant in a civil suit brought against him/her for fraud raises the defense that since the plaintiff knew the defendant had a reputation as a fraudster, the plaintiff was put on notice shenanigans would take place and thereby as a matter of law no fraud could have occurred.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

NYC has gone even further off the deep end -- https://www.huntonak.com/hunton-reta...rning-auctions

Yikes

[oldjudge]

Hi Corey! The easy solution is that if people find these terms egregious they can choose not to bid in these auctions until the terms are changed. Voting with your feet may work better than waiting for legislative changes. Do I think this will happen on any meaningful scale—no.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi Corey! The easy solution is that if people find these terms egregious they can choose not to bid in these auctions until the terms are changed. Voting with your feet may work better than waiting for legislative changes. Do I think this will happen on any meaningful scale—no.

You're right. People's feet are going to go where the "stuff" is, just how it is.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi Corey! The easy solution is that if people find these terms egregious they can choose not to bid in these auctions until the terms are changed. Voting with your feet may work better than waiting for legislative changes. Do I think this will happen on any meaningful scale—no.

As we are learning from this thread, many people do not and will not know what is taking place. So yes, I can vote with my feet, and in fact that is what I do. But how can a person do that if he/she doesn't know what is going on? Isn't that what legislatures are supposed to do -- prohibit shady practices that the average Joe would otherwise not realize are taking place and therefore not take the proper precautions to protect themselves?

[Lobo Aullando]

At the simplest level, if there's a scenario where

1. A buyer would pay up to $150,
2. The seller wants at least $100, and
3. No other potential buyer would bid above $50

... then how is the transaction that the first two parties want to take place actually going to happen? (I'm leaving out max auto-bidding and other fancy stuff, just focusing on the base concept.)

Lots of different hairs getting split in this thread, but I'm not seeing a net loss, regardless of how the reserve gets hit. The auction house is also supposed to get the most for the consigner, so if the extra motion draws a few more fish – I know, I know, or whales, which are mammals – then they're fulfilling that.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Point well taken. These practices are permitted because state and local legislatures permit them. NYC has gone even further off the deep end -- https://www.huntonak.com/hunton-reta...rning-auctions

Race to the bottom stuff...

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Nor does LOTG

Nor does Andy Sandler’s All Sports Collectibles Auctions.