Cutting cards from an uncut sheet????

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

The manufacturer is the one who put the gum in the pack with the cards.... They intended to put the gum in the pack. The gum they put in did damage.

Keep in mind that manufacturers packaged cards with gum to spur their gum sales. The cards were therefore the add-in. So it would be more sensible to inquire whether the cards damaged the texture or flavour of the gum.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I see your brain is incapable of distinguishing between cleaning a card to sell it to an unsuspecting buyer, and cleaning it to keep in your collection because you want it to look nicer. Without your ability to understand that difference, we can't possibly have an actual discussion about fraud in the hobby. An alteration can be fraud in one instance, but not in another. The alteration is not the fraud. The selling an altered card without disclosing the alteration is the fraud. And don't give me the "cleaning isn't altering" bullcrap. It's altering by definition. Your actual contention when you say that is that you believe cleaing is an acceptable form of alteration. Not that it isn't alteration. But even you have to recognize it's only acceptable to some people (even if as you claim it's a majority of people). So the sale without disclosing the alteration is fraud. Plain and simple.

You still don't get it (I'm shocked). At the end of the day, it is an accepted practice to soak vintage cards in water. It always has been. So it doesn't matter one bit why someone soaked a card. Whether they did it to enjoy the card more or to resell it for a profit is irrelevant. Knowing that the card was soaked in water does not affect its market value in any way. So there is no obligation to inform.

And please stop using your tired false equivalencies of replacing car parts on a vehicle that has been totaled. We're not talking about rebuilding corners or filling in holes or rebacking cards or any other situation where someone is replacing parts of a card. We're talking about soaking cards in water. The car analogy equivalent here is quite clearly someone washing their car. And nobody discloses having washed their cars when selling because it is not material to the value of the car itself. The fact that a dirty dingy old car that hasn't been cleaned in decades might sell for less than it would if someone were to clean it up a bit and present it in its best light does not make it fraud for someone to do so when selling without disclosure. Regardless of whether or not there exists a small army of psychopathic car collectors who greatly prefer cars that have never been cleaned but who cannot distinguish between one that has and one that has not. The market has no obligation to cater to these nutjobs. They are simply old men screaming at clouds.

If what you did to a card has no effect on its market value if disclosed, then it is not a material fact and you have no obligation to disclose it when selling.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You still don't get it (I'm shocked). At the end of the day, it is an accepted practice to soak vintage cards in water. It always has been. So it doesn't matter one bit why someone soaked a card. Whether they did it to enjoy the card more or to resell it for a profit is irrelevant. Knowing that the card was soaked in water does not affect its market value in any way. So there is no obligation to inform.

And please stop using your tired false equivalencies of replacing car parts on a vehicle that has been totaled. We're not talking about rebuilding corners or filling in holes or rebacking cards or any other situation where someone is replacing parts of a card. We're talking about soaking cards in water. The car analogy equivalent here is quite clearly someone washing their car. And nobody discloses having washed their cars when selling because it is not material to the value of the car itself. The fact that a dirty dingy old car that hasn't been cleaned in decades might sell for less than it would if someone were to clean it up a bit and present it in its best light does not make it fraud for someone to do so when selling without disclosure. Regardless of whether or not there exists a small army of psychopathic car collectors who greatly prefer cars that have never been cleaned but who cannot distinguish between one that has and one that has not. The market has no obligation to cater to these nutjobs. They are simply old men screaming at clouds.

If what you did to a card has no effect on its market value if disclosed, then it is not a material fact and you have no obligation to disclose it when selling.

LOL, No it is only accepted by those that do it. If anyone has never soaked a card it greatly enhances the card in many ways. The number 1 thing is you can now sell it for way more. I have also noticed the majority of those that have no problem soaking cards DO NOT want to buy cards that have been soaked. If you list a card as being soaked it will sell for less than if you didn't disclose the soaking.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Snowman

At the end of the day, it is an accepted practice to soak vintage cards in water. It always has been.

You don't get it (shocked). This is a completely and utterly false statement. Just because you say it, or you want it to be true, doesn't make it so. You will say anything so that you can justify your fraud in your mind.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

I remember back in 1966 and going into the old Woolworths 5&10 and they had uncut sheets of 1966 Topps baseball cards and you picked out who you wanted and the old gal working there would cut them out for you. She wasn't very good at cutting a straight line. I still have the Mantle and the memories of the day I got it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, No it is only accepted by those that do it. If anyone has never soaked a card it greatly enhances the card in many ways. The number 1 thing is you can now sell it for way more. I have also noticed the majority of those that have no problem soaking cards DO NOT want to buy cards that have been soaked. If you list a card as being soaked it will sell for less than if you didn't disclose the soaking.

Soaking a card in water would almost never result in being able to sell it for "way more" afterward. The vast majority of the time, the card would regrade the same with or without soaking. In some cases, it might get a slightly better grade, like going from a 3 to a 4 or something, but that wouldn't even be enough of a difference to cover the regrading costs and auction fees. I suppose there could be some extremely rare circumstances where soaking a card results in 2 grade bumps or more, but that would be pretty rare like with an EXMT card that was badly warped from a humid environment or something. But it's not like trimming where you can turn a 5 into a 10 or anything extreme like that. In general, you're talking about very minor improvements in a card's overall appearance by soaking it in water.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You don't get it (shocked). This is a completely and utterly false statement. Just because you say it, or you want it to be true, doesn't make it so. You will say anything so that you can justify your fraud in your mind.

I tell you what. Let's find out. I'll soak a card in water and sell it to you without disclosure. Then you can sue me and I'll show up in court. I'll even represent myself. If you win the case, I'll give you $100k. If I win the case, you pay me $50k. Do we have a deal?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Soaking a card in water would almost never result in being able to sell it for "way more" afterward. The vast majority of the time, the card would regrade the same with or without soaking. In some cases, it might get a slightly better grade, like going from a 3 to a 4 or something, but that wouldn't even be enough of a difference to cover the regrading costs and auction fees. I suppose there could be some extremely rare circumstances where soaking a card results in 2 grade bumps or more, but that would be pretty rare like with an EXMT card that was badly warped from a humid environment or something. But it's not like trimming where you can turn a 5 into a 10 or anything extreme like that. In general, you're talking about very minor improvements in a card's overall appearance by soaking it in water.

I beg to differ. Most cards that come out of albums would grade a or would grade very lowly due to paper attached to the back. Most cards that have been soaked to my knowledge, came out of scrapbooks so by removing these paper remnants, you can get a card that may grade very highly 67 or even eight, which is an incredible difference between an a or a one in value. I have a card that I bought at an antique show that came out of a scrapbook and had paper stuck on the back if left alone it would've graded very poorly. I was able to remove it and it's an absolutely gorgeous card that is much more valuable as a result of the soaking.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

I remember back in 1966 and going into the old Woolworths 5&10 and they had uncut sheets of 1966 Topps baseball cards and you picked out who you wanted and the old gal working there would cut them out for you. She wasn't very good at cutting a straight line. I still have the Mantle and the memories of the day I got it.

That's amazing. Can you share a photo of the card? I wonder if that was in every Woolworths or if you're was a one off?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I tell you what. Let's find out. I'll soak a card in water and sell it to you without disclosure. Then you can sue me and I'll show up in court. I'll even represent myself. If you win the case, I'll give you $100k. If I win the case, you pay me $50k. Do we have a deal?

This is the closest thing to disclosure your scamming behind has ever done.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I beg to differ. Most cards that come out of albums would grade a or would grade very lowly due to paper attached to the back. Most cards that have been soaked to my knowledge, came out of scrapbooks so by removing these paper remnants, you can get a card that may grade very highly 67 or even eight, which is an incredible difference between an a or a one in value. I have a card that I bought at an antique show that came out of a scrapbook and had paper stuck on the back if left alone it would've graded very poorly. I was able to remove it and it's an absolutely gorgeous card that is much more valuable as a result of the soaking.

I've quickly learned that everything he says is a lie. He can't help himself.

[jjbond]

To muddy the waters, I've been playing around in the Japanese baseball card world for the past year or so. There it seems a good half of the cards on the market had originally been given out as a sheet of 2, 4, 8, or more, and were later cut apart decades ago by kids.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jjbond

To muddy the waters, I've been playing around in the Japanese baseball card world for the past year or so. There it seems a good half of the cards on the market had originally been given out as a sheet of 2, 4, 8, or more, and were later cut apart decades ago by kids.

Ya, this was pretty standard with Menko cards. A lot of them have "lucky" stamps on back that you could exchange for the sheets. The higher the stamp number, the larger the sheet. PSA grades them numeric, but they designate them all as hand-cut because there's no way to know if they were cut by the manufacturer or if they were cut later by a collector. SGC no longer designates them as hand-cut though.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by jjbond

To muddy the waters, I've been playing around in the Japanese baseball card world for the past year or so. There it seems a good half of the cards on the market had originally been given out as a sheet of 2, 4, 8, or more, and were later cut apart decades ago by kids.

Here's what you're talking about. This display would be at the store, and the "winner" cards would be removed from this sheet. This sheet only has 2 card (right) and 4 card (left) panels left, but the top half would have held two full panels of 16 cards as the grand prize.

Here's the auction description...
"Menko card uncut panels were often attached to display sheets by the manufacturer. These sheets generally hung in a dagashiya or candy store. Single menko cards were typically sold in the store in small hanging bundles (or taba). When a purchaser drew a card from a hanging bundle with a special printed number on the back, he or she became eligible to select a group of uncut cards from a display sheet.

In this case, first prize winners selected an uncut 16 card sheet. Second prize winners won a four card panel, while third prize winners selected an uncut pair. Uncut card sheets and panels were mounted to display sheets with a small amount of adhesive. The actual display sheets were made of newspaper stock and thrown away after the prize cards were removed. Due to their flimsy nature and the practice of card removal, very few intact manufacturer's display sheets have survived to the present day.

We are pleased to be able to offer one of these seldom seen original displays, complete with actual cards as issued by the manufacturer. This display contains a total of 36 JCM 11 cards (A complete set consists of 28 cards). Only the second and third prize winning cards are included on this sheet. The first prize sheets must have been separated from the sheet at some point.

Hall of Famers included on this sheet are Sadaharu Oh, Shigeo Nagashima, Isao Harimoto (2 cards), Katsuya Nomura (2 cards), Futoshi Nakanishi (2 cards), Shinichi Eto (2 cards), Kazuhiro Yamauchi and Yasumitsu Toyoda. Also Isao Shibata (Meikyukai) and American Jim Marshall."


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