Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

OhioLawyerF5 · #1 10-21-2024, 02:45 PM

I've always found it odd to compare restoration in the fine art world to restoration of baseball cards. The two are incomprable. A one of a kind painting being restored and preserved is not even remotely similar to a mass produced baseball card where the market places a value difference between cards of different conditions. It's literally the condition that gives the card its value, relative to other copies of the same card. So no, it's nothing like restoring a one of a kind painting.

The better analogy would be the ephemera market. A movie poster, or advertisement that was mass produced. Altering and restoring those things will decrease the value compared to a similarly conditioned untouched copy. Or if you insist on fine art, a statue cast from a mold, where hundreds of copies exist. If Remington's famous Broncho Buster statue had the cowboy's arm broken off and glued back on, take a guess of it's value compared to an unrestored version.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-21-2024, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I've always found it odd to compare restoration in the fine art world to restoration of baseball cards. The two are incomprable. A one of a kind painting being restored and preserved is not even remotely similar to a mass produced baseball card where the market places a value difference between cards of different conditions. It's literally the condition that gives the card its value, relative to other copies of the same card. So no, it's nothing like restoring a one of a kind painting.

The better analogy would be the ephemera market. A movie poster, or advertisement that was mass produced. Altering and restoring those things will decrease the value compared to a similarly conditioned untouched copy. Or if you insist on fine art, a statue cast from a mold, where hundreds of copies exist. If Remington's famous Broncho Buster statue had the cowboy's arm broken off and glued back on, take a guess of it's value compared to an unrestored version.

An even simpler difference -- baseball card restoration is done to deceive, art restoration is done with disclosure to enhance people's experience.

LOL just recalling the Brent Huigens nonsense about "conservation."

OhioLawyerF5 · #3 10-21-2024, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An even simpler difference -- baseball card restoration is done to deceive, art restoration is done with disclosure to enhance people's experience.

LOL just recalling the Brent Huigens nonsense about "conservation."

While that's true, you need to consider why there needs to be deception in cards, but not paintings. If alterations didn�t matter in cards, it wouldn't be information that is withheld. The reason it matters in cards is what I pointed out above: original survivor cards are differeiated from other mass-produced copies based on condition. You don't have that market dynamic with unique paintings.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 10-21-2024, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

While that's true, you need to consider why there needs to be deception in cards, but not paintings. If alterations didn’t matter in cards, it wouldn't be information that is withheld. The reason it matters in cards is what I pointed out above: original survivor cards are differeiated from other mass-produced copies based on condition. You don't have that market dynamic with unique paintings.

This is the central question nobody has ever answered satisfactorily -- not Brent, not Travis, not anyone else -- if people don't care and it won't affect price, why don't you just disclose it? Ask it and watch the BS start to flow.

G1911 · #5 10-21-2024, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is the central question nobody has ever answered satisfactorily -- not Brent, not Travis, not anyone else -- if people don't care and it won't affect price, why don't you just disclose it? Ask it and watch the BS start to flow.

Don't be silly, Peter. They don't disclose it because there is nothing to disclose, not because it would negatively impact the price. Honesty is kept out of the equation for other reasons.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 10-21-2024, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Don't be silly, Peter. They don't disclose it because there is nothing to disclose, not because it would negatively impact the price. Honesty is kept out of the equation for other reasons.

There are days I'm pretty pessimistic and have come close to abandoning this thinking, but overall, I think at least some substantial part of the hobby still views most stuff done to cards as something they would want to know about.

And yes, it's a slippery slope, and there's no perfect definition of what is material alteration and what isn't that will satisfy everyone, I get that. But that doesn't invalidate the overarching point. I can have a valid general principle even if I can't perfectly and consistently apply it in every case. And anyhow, disclosure is the perfect solution, let people decide for themselves if they care.

G1911 · #7 10-21-2024, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are days I'm pretty pessimistic and have come close to abandoning this thinking, but overall, I think at least some substantial part of the hobby still views most stuff done to cards as something they would want to know about.

And yes, it's a slippery slope, and there's no perfect definition of what is material alteration and what isn't that will satisfy everyone, I get that. But that doesn't invalidate the overarching point. I can have a valid general principle even if I can't perfectly and consistently apply it in every case. And anyhow, disclosure is the perfect solution, let people decide for themselves if they care.

We know for a fact that a substantial part of the hobby cares - which is exactly why our fraudsters are so hellbent on not disclosing it. These crooks wouldn't make as much money if they were honest about the altering, it is the only motive to cover it up and hide it when selling. But of course, this too must be lied about in order to come up with a narrative that justifies their fraud.

raulus · #8 10-21-2024, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are days I'm pretty pessimistic and have come close to abandoning this thinking, but overall, I think at least some substantial part of the hobby still views most stuff done to cards as something they would want to know about.

And yes, it's a slippery slope, and there's no perfect definition of what is material alteration and what isn't that will satisfy everyone, I get that. But that doesn't invalidate the overarching point. I can have a valid general principle even if I can't perfectly and consistently apply it in every case. And anyhow, disclosure is the perfect solution, let people decide for themselves if they care.

I definitely vote for your disclosure requirement.

At the same time, a couple of cautionary tales come to mind, where disclosure has become meaningless:

1) In the great state of CA, there are disclosures on just about everything about how it may cause cancer. They've grown so ubiquitous that they're meaningless. I could see a situation where just about every card includes some throwaway disclosure like, "This card may have been altered by a previous owner." Obviously, once it's everywhere, it starts to lose its potency, and buyers would probably no longer care.

2) As one of my accounting professors used to say, "If you want to hide something in your financial statements, put it in the footnotes, because no one ever reads them." While it's not a thing today, it's not inconceivable to have a long list of boilerplate for every item at auction. If the boilerplate is long enough, you could disclose just about anything in there, and no one would ever read it.

Just to be clear, I don't condone card doctoring. I don't doctor cards myself (except in industry-approved fashion, like trimming down a card that is intended to be hand cut, like a 71 Bazooka). And I do support disclosure of any work done to a card, because knowing is half the battle.

But sometimes I do like to poke the bear. And in this case, I do worry that disclosure might not lead to the outcomes we might hope to accomplish.

Lorewalker · #9 10-21-2024, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Don't be silly, Peter. They don't disclose it because there is nothing to disclose, not because it would negatively impact the price. Honesty is kept out of the equation for other reasons.

THAT is exactly what Snowman wrote the last time he got rung up on this topic. Very convenient stance.

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