Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Cleaning bird poop off of a car is expected. Cleaning stuff off a sports card is not, despite the fact that many do it and many accept it. PSA just updated their terms taking a stance in writing on cleaning, which is likely a CYA.

Originally Posted by Mark17

The word "cleaning" needs to be better defined to make any sense in determining if it necessitates disclosure. For instance, if I have a stack of cards that sits on a shelf for a couple years, then decide to sell them, I may have to wipe a thin layer of dust off the top card. Technically, that's cleaning it. Does that need to be disclosed at risk of committing a criminal act?

The natural state of the Topps cards I collected in the 1960s came in wax packs. Sometimes the gum was lightly stuck to a card, and I altered that original, from-the-factory natural state by separating the gum from the card.
Often, powdered sugar residue might be in a card, and I'd wipe it off. If there was wax residue on a card back it left a stain and there wasn't much I could do, but if it was on the glossy side, I removed wax by rubbing it with a cloth.

It's a slippery slope, which is why I say the word "cleaning" is much too ambiguous.

I hate to admit it, but CGC's stance on cleaning seems to be reasonably workable and thus good. Removing "stuff" from comics isn't considered restoration by CGC. But!!! Introducing any extraneous substance/material, even water, to a comic is considered restoration and CGC will bestow the dreaded Purple label indicative of "Restored" upon the comic if it detects that any such extraneous substances have been applied.

Therefore rubbing sugar, gum and wax stains or wiping bird droppings off a card is not considered restoration, but a card on which Alan Rosen's "magic potion" had been used would definitely be considered restored, i.e. altered in card terminology.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I hate to admit it, but CGC's stance on cleaning seems to be reasonably workable and thus good. Removing "stuff" from comics isn't considered restoration by CGC. But!!! Introducing any extraneous substance/material, even water, to a comic is considered restoration and CGC will bestow the dreaded Purple label indicative of "Restored" upon the comic if it detects that any such extraneous substances have been applied.

Therefore rubbing sugar, gum and wax stains or wiping bird droppings off a card is not considered restoration, but a card on which Alan Rosen's "magic potion" had been used would definitely be considered restored, i.e. altered in card terminology.

And this makes sense. It's acceptable to remove a foreign substance from a card without disclosure, as long as nothing foreign (i.e. chemicals, water) is added to the card in the process. So "cleaning" per se, is not really the issue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

And this makes sense. It's acceptable to remove a foreign substance from a card without disclosure, as long as nothing foreign (i.e. chemicals, water) is added to the card in the process. So "cleaning" per se, is not really the issue.

How do you remove stuff from comics without using water or chemicals?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you remove stuff from comics without using water or chemicals?

Eraser, brush, etc. See comic book dry cleaning.

But the usage of any solvents should get you the dreaded Purple label from CGC if the graders were of course on the ball that day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Eraser, brush, etc. See comic book dry cleaning.

But the usage of any solvents should get you the dreaded Purple label from CGC if the graders were of course on the ball that day.

Hmmm ... not my field, but my vague understanding was that much more restoration/cleaning was acceptable in comics than in cards. Your thoughts on that?

[Balticfox]

An interesting and now very controversial question. For 25+ years the definite guide to restoration procedures could be found in the annual Overstreet Price Guide. Then CGC came around in 2000 and unbeknown to all but a few dealers close to CGC, their definition of restoration did not include all the procedures included in Overstreet's guide to restoration. Most contentious was pressing.

As a result, those dealers close to CGC had comics cleaned and pressed and got Blue(unrestored) labels for the comics they'd submitted to CGC. But buyers of these early slabs were under the impression that the comics contained were unrestored under Overstreet's previous guidelines to comic restoration. This of course gave those dealers who were close to CGC a tremendous and very unfair advantage in the marketplace.

Nonetheless, CGC classifies trimming as well as cleaning with solvents as restoration and in particular notes any trimming detected on the label (or so I understand).

[Balticfox]

What's also interesting is stamp collecting started way back in the 1840's which is far earlier than trade card or comic collecting. Are there any stamp collectors on this board who can tell us what can be done to stamps without raising hackles/alarm bells?

[OhioLawyerF5]

I've always found it odd to compare restoration in the fine art world to restoration of baseball cards. The two are incomprable. A one of a kind painting being restored and preserved is not even remotely similar to a mass produced baseball card where the market places a value difference between cards of different conditions. It's literally the condition that gives the card its value, relative to other copies of the same card. So no, it's nothing like restoring a one of a kind painting.

The better analogy would be the ephemera market. A movie poster, or advertisement that was mass produced. Altering and restoring those things will decrease the value compared to a similarly conditioned untouched copy. Or if you insist on fine art, a statue cast from a mold, where hundreds of copies exist. If Remington's famous Broncho Buster statue had the cowboy's arm broken off and glued back on, take a guess of it's value compared to an unrestored version.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmm ... not my field, but my vague understanding was that much more restoration/cleaning was acceptable in comics than in cards. Your thoughts on that?

The major difference is that pressing is allowed, and even performed, by CGC, but the rules on cleaning are actually pretty similar.