Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Think what you want, smart guy. You are clearly smarter than everyone else. Consequently, my experience is people with your arrogance are the easiest to convict. Your arrogance gets in the way of your objectivity and you walk right into every trap I lay at trial.

I do find it funny how it went from "no lawyer would say it's illegal." Then 2 lawyers show up and refute your claim. Then it changed to "well nobody gets charged, so it must be legal." And now it's "but you can't convince a jury to convict." LOL As if you have the slightest clue what a jury will do.

Like I said, put your freedom where your mouth is. Come do it in my county if you're so confident. The mere fact that you clean it and don't disclose it is proof in and of itself that not only does it make it worth more (else you wouldn't do it), but that you have an intent to defraud (else you would disclose). Good luck with your defense.

Yes, just call him Mr. Goalposts. LOL. When confronted before as to why he doesn't disclose, his answer is always, there's nothing to disclose. Taking a step back, though, there does seem to be a different generational attitude about cleaning, at least if it isn't bleach etc. I don't think it's accepted as a consensus by any means yet, but it's not on the same tier as trimming or recoloring.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When confronted before as to why he doesn't disclose, his answer is always, there's nothing to disclose.

Yeah, that's the kind of argument juries are persuaded by. :rollseyes:

I guess all the juries he's argued in front of are just different from the ones I have experience with. :cry:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Yeah, that's the kind of argument juries are persuaded by. :rollseyes:

I guess all the juries he's argued in front of are just different from the ones I have experience with. :cry:

I think he claimed to have taken some sort of informal survey but I may not be recalling correctly. I'm sure the questions were framed very neutrally lol. Hey Travis, how about my 56 Mantle question?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he claimed to have taken some sort of informal survey but I may not be recalling correctly. I'm sure the questions were framed very neutrally lol. Hey Travis, how about my 56 Mantle question?

That would go over well at trial as I parade so many sportscards experts and collectors to the stand that the judge has to cut it off. Juries find it very powerful when a judge has to say, "Ok, we get it, no need for more testimony."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That would go over well at trial as I parade so many sportscards experts and collectors to the stand that the judge has to cut it off. Juries find it very powerful when a judge has to say, "Ok, we get it, no need for more testimony."

I only mentioned the survey as the reason he thinks he understands how a jury would view things. I think he also said that no jury would ever convict someone of TRIMMING and then not disclosing, so it's not just cleaning, but he can correct me if I remember that wrong. This was his theory of why the feds dropped the investigation, because no jury would find trimming then concealing to be a crime.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I only mentioned the survey as the reason he thinks he understands how a jury would view things. I think he also said that no jury would ever convict someone of TRIMMING and then not disclosing, so it's not just cleaning, but he can correct me if I remember that wrong. This was his theory of why the feds dropped the investigation, because no jury would find trimming then concealing to be a crime.

That's a really stupid assumption to make on his part.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That's a really stupid assumption to make on his part.

Well of course, but you can spell out over and over again the elements of mail and wire fraud, and how they apply to selling a card without disclosing alterations, and it doesn't penetrate his ego. LOL.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That would go over well at trial as I parade so many sportscards experts and collectors to the stand that the judge has to cut it off. Juries find it very powerful when a judge has to say, "Ok, we get it, no need for more testimony."

Yep. And then I'll call more with the complete opposite opinion as you. Including countless graders at PSA and SGC. Even the former owner of SGC openly cleaned cards. The MAJORITY of collectors in this hobby see nothing wrong with it. That's a problem for you and your argument. And despite what fantasy world you think you live in, once you step outside of the hobby, you will find almost zero people who would view cleaning and reselling a sports card as evenly remotely fraudulent. I'll call PSA graders to the stand and ask them if it's OK to remove wax off an 86 Fleer Basketball card and then you're going to have a real hard time convincing a jury that while it's OK to clean wax off an 86 Fleer Basketball card that it's actually not OK to wipe it off of a 72 Topps Baseball card because "just trust me bro". Or that while it's OK to soak cards A, B, and C in water to remove the glue and scrapbook paper from the backs that it's actually not OK to soak cards D, E, and F in water because "that's just how it is and that's just how I want my hobby to be god dammit!". You're going to come across to any jury as a hypocritical old man screaming at clouds attempting to apply double-standards to a hobby that has blinded your ability to see the world through the lens of any normal rational human being.

Taking a thing and cleaning the thing so that it presents nicer is not fraud. Nor is it an alteration. If a bird poops on your car, you don't have to attach a letter to the bill of sale for having cleaned it off. And if you get a piece of gunk on a baseball card, you don't have to attach a letter to it either for having removed said gunk from the card just because some delusional nutjob collector (or even an army of them) wishes the world worked that way because "god dammit! I don't want any cards that used to have gunk on them in my collection!!!"

It's not fraud and you're a dumbass for thinking it is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What cards did Forman ever acknowledge he had cleaned? I missed that?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yep. And then I'll call more with the complete opposite opinion as you. Including countless graders at PSA and SGC. Even the former owner of SGC openly cleaned cards. The MAJORITY of collectors in this hobby see nothing wrong with it. That's a problem for you and your argument. And despite what fantasy world you think you live in, once you step outside of the hobby, you will find almost zero people who would view cleaning and reselling a sports card as evenly remotely fraudulent. I'll call PSA graders to the stand and ask them if it's OK to remove wax off an 86 Fleer Basketball card and then you're going to have a real hard time convincing a jury that while it's OK to clean wax off an 86 Fleer Basketball card that it's actually not OK to wipe it off of a 72 Topps Baseball card because "just trust me bro". Or that while it's OK to soak cards A, B, and C in water to remove the glue and scrapbook paper from the backs that it's actually not OK to soak cards D, E, and F in water because "that's just how it is and that's just how I want my hobby to be god dammit!". You're going to come across to any jury as a hypocritical old man screaming at clouds attempting to apply double-standards to a hobby that has blinded your ability to see the world through the lens of any normal rational human being.



Taking a thing and cleaning the thing so that it presents nicer is not fraud. Nor is it an alteration. If a bird poops on your car, you don't have to attach a letter to the bill of sale for having cleaned it off. And if you get a piece of gunk on a baseball card, you don't have to attach a letter to it either for having removed said gunk from the card just because some delusional nutjob collector (or even an army of them) wishes the world worked that way because "god dammit! I don't want any cards that used to have gunk on them in my collection!!!"



It's not fraud and you're a dumbass for thinking it is.

Your arrogance knows no bounds.

If you think I'll come off as a dumbass to a jury, you're a dumbass in this thread. I have expertise pursuading juries for 19 years and am quite good at it. You, on the other hand, are an armchair lawyer without a logical bone in your body. I'd wipe the floor with you.

I notice you have ignored the legal points I made in favor of the "hur dur you can't convince a jury hur dur" argument. I wonder why that is? Hmm. One thing your inexperienced legal brain either has forgotten, or doesn't know, is that the judge gives the jury instructions on the law. And the instructions for the charges I am refrencing will specifically instruct the jury to disregard your stupid argument. Good luck with that, smart guy.

Again, internet talk is cheap. Clearly any idiot can do it. Come and see how well your argument actually works. I dare you.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You, on the other hand, are an armchair lawyer without a logical bone in your body. I'd wipe the floor with you.

Ah yes, pit the mathematician up against the lawyer in a battle of logic. This should go well for you.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Including countless graders at PSA and SGC.

Hmmmm. Aren't they the ones who graded a Honus Wagner card as an 8 despite knowing that it had been trimmed? Isn't that what this thread is about?

All things considered, you're delusional if you think the graders at PSA and SGC merit trust.

Originally Posted by Snowman

And despite what fantasy world you think you live in, once you step outside of the hobby....

Let me give you my solemn assurance that you don't need to venture into some fantasy world to find hobbyists. They're very real and on this very board in large numbers. In fact if it wasn't for them, this board wouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'll call PSA graders to the stand....

Even I could then point out that they launched their business with a fraud. I could then leave the jury snickering and giggling with side-by-side comparisons of cards they'd misgraded thereby demonstrating that these pro graders didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're going to come across to any jury as a hypocritical old man screaming at clouds attempting to apply double-standards to a hobby that has blinded your ability to see the world through the lens of any normal rational human being.

Meanwhile you're coming across as a dealer with a whole bunch of slabs he's trying to flog at nosebleed prices.

Originally Posted by Snowman

...some delusional nutjob collector (or even an army of them)....

I might point out that contempt for one's customers is a good way to court swift bankruptcy.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Yeah, that's the kind of argument juries are persuaded by. :rollseyes:

I guess all the juries he's argued in front of are just different from the ones I have experience with. :cry:

The idea that because you're a lawyer you are more in tune to how the general public sees things is remarkably ignorant.

The fact of the matter is that normal people do not see cleaning a thing and later reselling the thing as fraudulent behavior. You can scream fraud all day long from the rooftops, but nobody is going to listen to you because it's utter nonsense. If you think your viewpoint is closer to public opinion on this topic than mine, you're completely delusional.

Now if we're talking about trimming or rebuilding corners, or recoloring a card or something else where you are in fact changing something about the card itself, as opposed to simply cleaning it or removing something from it, then that's a different discussion. But when it comes to merely cleaning a card, you're an idiot if you think that requires disclosure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The idea that because you're a lawyer you are more in tune to how the general public sees things is remarkably ignorant.

The fact of the matter is that normal people do not see cleaning a thing and later reselling the thing as fraudulent behavior. You can scream fraud all day long from the rooftops, but nobody is going to listen to you because it's utter nonsense. If you think your viewpoint is closer to public opinion on this topic than mine, you're completely delusional.

Now if we're talking about trimming or rebuilding corners, or recoloring a card or something else where you are in fact changing something about the card itself, as opposed to simply cleaning it or removing something from it, then that's a different discussion. But when it comes to merely cleaning a card, you're an idiot if you think that requires disclosure.

Have you not said before that no jury would ever convict someone of concealing trimming? Wasn't that your explanation for why the FBI dropped the investigation? Help me out, I'm too tired to go back and reread stuff.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Have you not said before that no jury would ever convict someone of concealing trimming? Wasn't that your explanation for why the FBI dropped the investigation? Help me out, I'm too tired to go back and reread stuff.

His positions have taken numerous u turns, as usual. Whenever he gets cornered he changes his position and then asserts the person he is arguing with is to blame. When you guys have him on the ropes you need to close.

Anyway, if you are keeping score at home no lawyers have piped in to support the indictment argument he waged. So the score is 3-0 and feeling like a shutout.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The idea that because you're a lawyer you are more in tune to how the general public sees things is remarkably ignorant.



The fact of the matter is that normal people do not see cleaning a thing and later reselling the thing as fraudulent behavior. You can scream fraud all day long from the rooftops, but nobody is going to listen to you because it's utter nonsense. If you think your viewpoint is closer to public opinion on this topic than mine, you're completely delusional.



Now if we're talking about trimming or rebuilding corners, or recoloring a card or something else where you are in fact changing something about the card itself, as opposed to simply cleaning it or removing something from it, then that's a different discussion. But when it comes to merely cleaning a card, you're an idiot if you think that requires disclosure.

It's interesting how when I began this discussion with you, trimming was exactly the topic at hand. I love how you've completely abandoned that one. Careful, those pedals aren't designed to go backward.

Furthermore, I never said that being a lawyer makes me more in tune with what the general public thinks. That's a strawman. I said my experience trying cases like this to a jury makes me better at predicting what juries will do. And you're ignorant if you think otherwise. Cases aren't won based on what a jury thinks coming into a case. In fact, we weed those people out in voir dire. Juries aren't "the general public." They are a captive audience, chosen for their objectivity and willingness to hear evidence and apply the law the judge instructs them with, and educated by me over the course of a trial. If your skills in logic and argument here are any indication, you'd convict yourself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

It's interesting how when I began this discussion with you, trimming was exactly the topic at hand. I love how you've completely abandoned that one. Careful, those pedals aren't designed to go backward.

Furthermore, I never said that being a lawyer makes me more in tune with what the general public thinks. That's a strawman. I said my experience trying cases like this to a jury makes me better at predicting what juries will do. And you're ignorant if you think otherwise. Cases aren't won based on what a jury thinks coming into a case. In fact, we weed those people out in voir dire. Juries aren't "the general public." They are a captive audience, chosen for their objectivity and willingness to hear evidence and apply the law the judge instructs them with, and educated by me over the course of a trial. If your skills in logic and argument here are any indication, you'd convict yourself.

LOL it's rather absurd that he thinks he knows how 12 people chosen from a jury pool in whatever Ohio location you practice in, or anywhere else for that matter, are going to view a case. But that's the hubris we're dealing with.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Now if we're talking about trimming or rebuilding corners, or recoloring a card or something else where you are in fact changing something about the card itself, as opposed to simply cleaning it or removing something from it, then that's a different discussion. But when it comes to merely cleaning a card, you're an idiot if you think that requires disclosure.

Cleaning bird poop off of a car is expected. Cleaning stuff off a sports card is not, despite the fact that many do it and many accept it. PSA just updated their terms taking a stance in writing on cleaning, which is likely a CYA.

Anyway, if cleaning is no big deal why have none of your graded card listings mentioned it? Do you never sell cleaned cards but only clean those you retain in your collection?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Cleaning bird poop off of a car is expected. Cleaning stuff off a sports card is not, despite the fact that many do it and many accept it. PSA just updated their terms taking a stance in writing on cleaning, which is likely a CYA.

Anyway, if cleaning is no big deal why have none of your graded card listings mentioned it? Do you never sell cleaned cards but only clean those you retain in your collection?

The word "cleaning" needs to be better defined to make any sense in determining if it necessitates disclosure. For instance, if I have a stack of cards that sits on a shelf for a couple years, then decide to sell them, I may have to wipe a thin layer of dust off the top card. Technically, that's cleaning it. Does that need to be disclosed at risk of committing a criminal act?

The natural state of the Topps cards I collected in the 1960s came in wax packs. Sometimes the gum was lightly stuck to a card, and I altered that original, from-the-factory natural state by separating the gum from the card.
Often, powdered sugar residue might be in a card, and I'd wipe it off. If there was wax residue on a card back it left a stain and there wasn't much I could do, but if it was on the glossy side, I removed wax by rubbing it with a cloth.

It's a slippery slope, which is why I say the word "cleaning" is much too ambiguous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The word "cleaning" needs to be better defined to make any sense in determining if it necessitates disclosure. For instance, if I have a stack of cards that sits on a shelf for a couple years, then decide to sell them, I may have to wipe a thin layer of dust off the top card. Technically, that's cleaning it. Does that need to be disclosed at risk of committing a criminal act?

The natural state of the Topps cards I collected in the 1960s came in wax packs. Sometimes the gum was lightly stuck to a card, and I altered that original, from-the-factory natural state by separating the gum from the card.
Often, powdered sugar residue might be in a card, and I'd wipe it off. If there was wax residue on a card back it left a stain and there wasn't much I could do, but if it was on the glossy side, I removed wax by rubbing it with a cloth.

It's a slippery slope, which is why I say the word "cleaning" is much too ambiguous.

I agree, and it needs to be tempered by both common sense and historical practice.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The word "cleaning" needs to be better defined to make any sense in determining if it necessitates disclosure. For instance, if I have a stack of cards that sits on a shelf for a couple years, then decide to sell them, I may have to wipe a thin layer of dust off the top card. Technically, that's cleaning it. Does that need to be disclosed at risk of committing a criminal act?

The natural state of the Topps cards I collected in the 1960s came in wax packs. Sometimes the gum was lightly stuck to a card, and I altered that original, from-the-factory natural state by separating the gum from the card.
Often, powdered sugar residue might be in a card, and I'd wipe it off. If there was wax residue on a card back it left a stain and there wasn't much I could do, but if it was on the glossy side, I removed wax by rubbing it with a cloth.

It's a slippery slope, which is why I say the word "cleaning" is much too ambiguous.

Clearly your examples are not cleaning and clearly I was writing to Snowman about his type of cleaning that he has detailed repeatedly. Assuming he is being truthful about what he really does to clean cards, he has clearly defined what cleaning is to him.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Clearly your examples are not cleaning and clearly I was writing to Snowman about his type of cleaning that he has detailed repeatedly. Assuming he is being truthful about what he really does to clean cards, he has clearly defined what cleaning is to him.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Cleaning bird poop off of a car is expected. Cleaning stuff off a sports card is not, despite the fact that many do it and many accept it.

All right then, let's say my stack of cards on my shelf, with a 1967 Topps Ron Herbel on top, has a thin layer of dust AND a single mouse turd, right on Herbel's left eye. Does cleaning the dust + poop off without announcing it constitute a potential crime?

This is what I mean by a slippery slope and no, I don't want to progress from mouse poop to bird poop just to make the analogy more solid.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The word "cleaning" needs to be better defined to make any sense in determining if it necessitates disclosure. For instance, if I have a stack of cards that sits on a shelf for a couple years, then decide to sell them, I may have to wipe a thin layer of dust off the top card. Technically, that's cleaning it. Does that need to be disclosed at risk of committing a criminal act?



The natural state of the Topps cards I collected in the 1960s came in wax packs. Sometimes the gum was lightly stuck to a card, and I altered that original, from-the-factory natural state by separating the gum from the card.

Often, powdered sugar residue might be in a card, and I'd wipe it off. If there was wax residue on a card back it left a stain and there wasn't much I could do, but if it was on the glossy side, I removed wax by rubbing it with a cloth.



It's a slippery slope, which is why I say the word "cleaning" is much too ambiguous.

That's why the elements of the offense are altering an item with intent to defraud. That's the key. If they can prove your intent to defraud, it's a crime. Intent to defraud can be proven with many types of evidence, but is generally a question of fact for the jury to decide.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That's why the elements of the offense are altering an item with intent to defraud. That's the key. If they can prove your intent to defraud, it's a crime. Intent to defraud can be proven with many types of evidence, but is generally a question of fact for the jury to decide.

Talk about moving goalposts

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Anyway, if cleaning is no big deal why have none of your graded card listings mentioned it? Do you never sell cleaned cards but only clean those you retain in your collection?

I think we can guess why