Theft at Philly Show

[Lucas00]

Official post from the dealer himself.

[ClementeFanOh]

This is sad news, I am sorry for Paul Borges that he was victimized in this
way. A few observations:

1) Seems like surging popularity of the hobby has incurred this
consequence. Where large amounts of money and valuables are, bad
people are also. I recall telling someone that the floor of the National in
Cleveland looked like a casino.

2) It is hard to overemphasize the need for ALL parties to be vigilant at
shows. Organizers- especially at larger venues- get the proper security!
If you have to charge $5 entry instead of free admission to compensate,
do it. Those who transact the most will consider it a drop in a bucket.
Sellers- take a helper whose function is to watch your stuff. Don't default
by saying it's inconvenient, do it. Buyers/guests- be watchful at all times.
Don't throw some hissy fit about "rights violations" if you are required to
show a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card). Make it
harder on the bad guys and they may skip the show you are attending.
Doesn't that sound desirable?

3) Someone above mentioned no cash at shows. Wow, I have no words.
Of course cash needs to be at shows- the people holding the cash and
event organizers need to work to make it as safe as possible.

4) For those of you who choose to carry a weapon or who are thinking about
it, know the laws in your state that apply. This is especially true for carry
in vehicles.


Since certain segments of this board tend to turn even the most helpful
or thorough comments into a cause to engage in hyperbole, I am not
suggesting a police state at shows. I am also not suggesting that shows
should look like an episode of Gunsmoke. It's clear there's a burgeoning
problem and that acting, rather than talking about it, is the answer.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

That truly sucks. I didn't read the whole thread, I hope he at least has insurance.

[GWmotorlodge]

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by GWmotorlodge

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

Each state has it's own laws and restrictions in terms of who, where, what type and when a gun may be carried and many do not reciprocate permits from other states. It is a frequently changing literal maze of laws and regulations. You also can't shoot someone for stealing (at least in my state), only if there is a threat of imminent physical harm and no means of egress. It is important for anyone considering this to thoroughly learn and understand the laws in their state and any other state they are thinking about carrying their weapon into.

[G1911]

All of the theft threads get into guns before the end. It is not a solution. Even in 2nd Amendment honoring free states it is not legal to shoot somebody for attempting a theft.

These incidents have not been thieves threatening the dealer or anyone else, or doing so in a way that would make a reasonable person fear for the lives of themselves or others. It's been breaking into an unoccupied car (or in one case, just opening the unlocked car) or grabbing while a dealer isn't looking. That's not a legal reason to shoot them, nor is it an ethical one. Carrying a gun, if one so chooses, is a responsibility that requires one to de-escalate, not shoot anyone who breaks a law, especially in a public venue. It is a tool of last resort, not a first resort to show how tough one is or to shoot any lawbreaker. In none of these of incidents would even drawing ones weapon be legal or ethical. In none of them would responsible carry have changed the outcome whatsoever.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

1) I mean sure, carry for other things if you are going to do so responsibly and with control.

2) I have yet to see any evidence of such an incident? It's probably happened at some point in the last 40 years but absolutely none of the threads we have had this year about this spate of thefts ever posed any danger to anyones life.

3) Again, it is not legal to draw your gun and brandish it on someone for committing a theft or you suspect committed a theft. In none of the actual real world incidents we have discussed would producing the weapon, a requirement to persuade a bad guy to stop, be legal or even ethical.

Guns are for extreme cases where there are no better options, not a tool to stop anything negative or to feel good.

When did I say thefts should be ignored? I'd leave to see where I said that.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card).

Will my KISS Army card work?

Guns are not the answer. And before the gun people have kittens over my 'liberal' view, I own multiple and can shoot the wings off a mosquito with my rifle, so I am not a prohibitionist, but I am a realist. Have you met the average card show attendee? I don't think a good portion of them should be allowed to drive, and to think of them armed...yipes!

[ClementeFanOh]

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is there anyone on this board more arrogant, self-righteous, and personally hostile as you? Good god, as you like to say. I haven't said anything in this thread that would remotely warrant yet another personal attack from you. Here's one back -- fuck yourself. I doubt I've told anyone that before, but there's a time and place for everything. Here's some advice for you -- stick to the merits of a discussion, don't get angry, and don't attack people. How hard is that?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Adam/Exhibitman-

Good God, not you too. PeterSpaeth and G1911 are..."special". They write to
see their words in print, or to start debate even if off the topic of the post.
Sophistry is too much of a preoccupation in certain corners of this board. I
am certain you are better than this.

Let me make this crystal clear: improving awareness and security at card
shows is not- not- simply about carrying a weapon. I've made it beyond
clear that preventative measures on the part of a) promoters b) dealers and
c) show attendees together, can make it much harder on those with bad
intent, to carry out that intent. This can and should involve enhanced
human security at large shows for sure, electronic security if
possible/practical, and steps to ensure that people entering actually have a
legitimate purpose for doing so. It should involve sellers with significant
card/cash value to enlist help at their tables, and for show attendees to do
their part by being vigilant with their own material as well. Gripes by the
"but" crowd- you know, people who say "I'd like to feel more secure at
shows but..."- are plentiful. I don't believe my suggestions would entirely
stop this problem, but they would stand a much better chance of helping
than an endless list of reservations about taking action.

In my first post on this thread, I said hyperbolists would come out of the
woodwork. It's precisely what has happened here, by precisely the folks
who I predicted would do it. The G1911/PeterSpaeth ploy of reduction to
the absurd came right out- shocking.

Last word- I agree the gun aspect has taken too much energy here. Bottom
line is individuals are free to take legal steps to protect themselves. The
wisdom of that choice is beyond this thread- it simply exists as a choice.
It isn't that hard, all parties at shows should take steps to ensure they aren't
a victim.

Trent King

How is it absurd of me to observe that bringing a gun out is not a legal or ethical solution to non-violent thefts that never posed a physical danger to anyone? Of course you can't answer anything or back your statements because your solution of open carrying guns at shows to cause panics is retarded and you can't figure out how that makes any sense. This is the second time you have had a meltdown over somebody not endorsing violence. What kind of sick fuck objects to this?

All you do is blatantly lie about transcripts, throw randomly chosen insults, and come off like a potentially violent lunatic. I hope this is merely an online tough guy persona this dipshit has.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

How is it absurd of me to observe that bringing a gun out is not a legal or ethical solution to non-violent thefts that never posed a physical danger to anyone? Of course you can't answer anything or back your statements because your solution of open carrying guns at shows to cause panics is retarded and you can't figure out how that makes any sense. This is the second time you have had a meltdown over somebody not endorsing violence. What kind of sick fuck objects to this?

All you do is blatantly lie about transcripts, throw randomly chosen insults, and come off like a potentially violent lunatic. I hope this is merely an online tough guy persona this dipshit has.

Where I come from, a normal reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to defend/explain your position. Nope -- Adam dares to disagree with the all knowing one and the response is "Good god not you too."

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Where I come from, a normal reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to defend/explain your position. Nope -- Adam dares to disagree with the all knowing one and the response is "Good god not you too."

I know he believes that you and I, even though we rarely agree, are in some kind of conspiracy against him, but what did Adam ever do?!?!