What are the best vintage, investment-type players in your opinion?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm a West Coast guy, to me Willie Mays is the greatest post war player and along with Cobb is arguably the GOAT. That's why I own a Mays rookie and not a Mantle rookie, I'll buy a 51B Mantle at some point but it's pretty far down the list. But that has nothing to do with ones skin pigment.

Personally, I think the race argument is tired and outdated.

If somebody likes Mantle more than me, great, I'm a Mays guy. Who cares what the color of their skin was when it comes to collecting baseball cards.

Again, you're right now, but my point is that there is a historical aspect to Mantle's transcendence that lives on today and as much as we would like to pretend race was just as irrelevant back then, I don't think it was. And again, I am not saying the only reason people elevated Mantle above everyone else is that he's white, not at all.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, you're right now, but my point is that there is a historical aspect to Mantle's transcendence that lives on today and as much as we would like to pretend race was just as irrelevant back then, I don't think it was. And again, I am not saying the only reason people elevated Mantle above everyone else is that he's white, not at all.

Race was relevant back then, it's not now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Race was relevant back then, it's not now.

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

"If Mantle was black" is not a good argument, it's a tired argument.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

"If Mantle was black" is not a good argument, it's a tired argument.

Do you think he would have achieved the same mythical stature?

[Exhibitman]

I think we are overthinking this.

Mays's hobby status (card prices) would be closer to Mantle's if Mays was card #313 instead of card #261 in the 1952 Topps set. Mantle became iconic in the hobby in large part because of the legend of the last series of 1952 Topps: the mass retail returns, the garbage scow in the harbor, the Mr. Mint 'find', etc., until "the Mantle" (and you know when someone says it that way it is exactly what they mean) transcends the hobby itself, like the Wagner. From that base, the prices on every Mantle card get pushed higher much as every Wagner card gets pushed higher.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I think we are overthinking this.

Mays's hobby status (card prices) would be closer to Mantle's if Mays was card #313 instead of card #261 in the 1952 Topps set. Mantle became iconic in the hobby in large part because of the legend of the last series of 1952 Topps: the mass retail returns, the garbage scow in the harbor, the Mr. Mint 'find', etc., until "the Mantle" (and you know when someone says it that way it is exactly what they mean) transcends the hobby itself, like the Wagner. From that base, the prices on every Mantle card get pushed higher much as every Wagner card gets pushed higher.

Don't equivalent Mantle cards still outsell Mays pretty handily? Just to pick a few years, 56, 57, 58?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I think we are overthinking this.

Mays's hobby status (card prices) would be closer to Mantle's if Mays was card #313 instead of card #261 in the 1952 Topps set. Mantle became iconic in the hobby in large part because of the legend of the last series of 1952 Topps: the mass retail returns, the garbage scow in the harbor, the Mr. Mint 'find', etc., until "the Mantle" (and you know when someone says it that way it is exactly what they mean) transcends the hobby itself, like the Wagner. From that base, the prices on every Mantle card get pushed higher much as every Wagner card gets pushed higher.

You can test this theory by looking at 1953 Topps where the Mays is short printed and the Mantle is not.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you think he would have achieved the same mythical stature?

He achieved what he achieved,what if the sprinkler was set lower, what if he didn't have a drinking problem, what if his body wasn't prone to injury?

Didn't Mays achieve the same mythical stature? He did for me and many other collectors.

Is your issue that Mays rookie is cheaper than Mantle rookie? Who cares?

You're posting fantasy what ifs with racist undertones, yes, America was racist in the 50's, America is currently the least racist country in the world.

Can we please move forward and realize the dream of Martin Luther King?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

He achieved what he achieved,what if the sprinkler was set lower, what if he didn't have a drinking problem, what if his body wasn't prone to injury?

Didn't Mays achieve the same mythical stature? He did for me and many other collectors.

Is your issue that Mays rookie is cheaper than Mantle rookie? Who cares?

You're posting fantasy what ifs with racist undertones, yes, America was racist in the 50's, America is currently the least racist country in the world.

Can we please move forward and realize the dream of Martin Luther King?

Way back in this thread a guy asked a legitimate question why Mantle had the hobby status he did, given where he falls in terms of on field performance. I was simply trying to answer that question as best I could. You are raising a bunch of straw men, I have said nothing at all about present day America nor am I posting anything with racist undertones. Moving forward with Dr. King's vision does not mean not talking about racism particularly its historic impact.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you think he would have achieved the same mythical stature?

I'm not sure anyone can deny skin color generally played into public perception at the time but I don't think it had anything to do with Mantle becoming Mantle. There was so much more at play. He was taking over for Joe D and he didn't miss a beat. Mays wasn't stepping into shoes like that. Mantle deserves every accolade. What he did was next to impossible. How often does a player step into the shoes of someone like Joe D and plays even better than they did?

[mordecaibrown1]

Ruth
Wagner
Cobb
Joe Jackson
Mantle
Young
Mathewson
Gehrig
Johnson
Anson
Kelly
Mays
DiMaggio
Robinson
Williams

All depends on the card/set its from

[Yoda]

Back in the day, all the neighborhood kids (me, too, although I was a Dodgers fan) felt that while Willie was great, special even, Mickey was magic.

[Flintboy]

Two that come to mind as really undervalued are Bench’s rookie in PSA 8 or higher and Staubach in football. Staubach’s rook in an 8 right now is a steal. Especially when you compare it to Bradshaw…..

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

I'll make it for you...

Peter is saying that Mantle likely benefited from being white, or had what many now refer to as "white privilege" in that had he been black, he may not have had the social impact that he did as a star white athlete. Perhaps he wouldn't have had as many endorsement deals or been on as many late-night talk shows, etc. Not because those promoting him were being actively racist, but rather just because they simply chose the star white guy because they thought he would be able to better connect with their customers or target audience. Surely his social persona helped to build his brand, and it is largely that brand that still lives on. That brand also contributes partially to the value of his cards even to this day.

There may be some truth to that viewpoint, I don't know. I wasn't around yet. But it is certainly plausible that had Mantle been black, he might not have had as many opportunities to build his brand and market himself to the extent that he did.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

my 79 year old father and i agree with you on this topic. race was 100% part of the problem then. not calling anyone racist but times were quite diff then.
many people who pushed mantle to his current prices were / are baby boomers. mays and aaron never received the PR they deserved then and still today.

i do think mantle playing in NY and the yanks playing on all those WS def helped since that meant more tv footage was saved.