What are the best vintage, investment-type players in your opinion?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO it's one of many factors, not the sole determinant. But my best guess would be that if Mantle had been Black, it would not have turned out the same for him in the context of his time.

I think it's safe to say, baseball card collectors in today's world care nothing about the color of ones skin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I think it's safe to say, baseball card collectors in today's world care nothing about the color of ones skin.

I agree, and of course that is as it should be, but we are now taking as a given Mantle's status as the most iconic post-war player, maybe ever, which to some extent has been handed down. So I don't think we're saying different things. If the hobby collectively had a completely clean slate to write on, does it still really rank Mantle above (far above) everyone else?

I grew up in the 60s. It was a given that Mantle was godlike. My friends and I loved Mays too, but it wasn't the same. You opened packs wanting Mantle above everyone else. To a large extent that engrained thinking lives on.

[Kutcher55]

Yastrzemski.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree, and of course that is as it should be, but we are now taking as a given Mantle's status as the most iconic post-war player, maybe ever, which to some extent has been handed down. So I don't think we're saying different things. If the hobby collectively had a completely clean slate to write on, does it still really rank Mantle above (far above) everyone else?

I grew up in the 60s. It was a given that Mantle was godlike. To a large extent that engrained thinking lives on.

I'm a West Coast guy, to me Willie Mays is the greatest post war player and along with Cobb is arguably the GOAT. That's why I own a Mays rookie and not a Mantle rookie, I'll buy a 51B Mantle at some point but it's pretty far down the list. But that has nothing to do with ones skin pigment.

Personally, I think the race argument is tired and outdated.

If somebody likes Mantle more than me, great, I'm a Mays guy. Who cares what the color of their skin was when it comes to collecting baseball cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm a West Coast guy, to me Willie Mays is the greatest post war player and along with Cobb is arguably the GOAT. That's why I own a Mays rookie and not a Mantle rookie, I'll buy a 51B Mantle at some point but it's pretty far down the list. But that has nothing to do with ones skin pigment.

Personally, I think the race argument is tired and outdated.

If somebody likes Mantle more than me, great, I'm a Mays guy. Who cares what the color of their skin was when it comes to collecting baseball cards.

Again, you're right now, but my point is that there is a historical aspect to Mantle's transcendence that lives on today and as much as we would like to pretend race was just as irrelevant back then, I don't think it was. And again, I am not saying the only reason people elevated Mantle above everyone else is that he's white, not at all.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, you're right now, but my point is that there is a historical aspect to Mantle's transcendence that lives on today and as much as we would like to pretend race was just as irrelevant back then, I don't think it was. And again, I am not saying the only reason people elevated Mantle above everyone else is that he's white, not at all.

Race was relevant back then, it's not now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Race was relevant back then, it's not now.

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

"If Mantle was black" is not a good argument, it's a tired argument.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

I'll make it for you...

Peter is saying that Mantle likely benefited from being white, or had what many now refer to as "white privilege" in that had he been black, he may not have had the social impact that he did as a star white athlete. Perhaps he wouldn't have had as many endorsement deals or been on as many late-night talk shows, etc. Not because those promoting him were being actively racist, but rather just because they simply chose the star white guy because they thought he would be able to better connect with their customers or target audience. Surely his social persona helped to build his brand, and it is largely that brand that still lives on. That brand also contributes partially to the value of his cards even to this day.

There may be some truth to that viewpoint, I don't know. I wasn't around yet. But it is certainly plausible that had Mantle been black, he might not have had as many opportunities to build his brand and market himself to the extent that he did.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing my point entirely. It's OK maybe I am not communicating it.

my 79 year old father and i agree with you on this topic. race was 100% part of the problem then. not calling anyone racist but times were quite diff then.
many people who pushed mantle to his current prices were / are baby boomers. mays and aaron never received the PR they deserved then and still today.

i do think mantle playing in NY and the yanks playing on all those WS def helped since that meant more tv footage was saved.