Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility

[Smanzari]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice, can you post a link to your eBay page or any other online place you sell cards?

Smvintage13.com

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card? We guarantee everything we sell to get a number grade (unless stated otherwise in the listing) but to take advantage of the guarantee it has to be submitted by us. Once it leaves our possession (to the buyer) it's bought.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card?

This. And it is very important.

Buyer had chance to inspect card in person before purchasing. I’m sure many of us have been in this exact situation multiple times and you chalk it up to a learning experience.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by notfast

This. And it is very important.

Buyer had chance to inspect card in person before purchasing. I’m sure many of us have been in this exact situation multiple times and you chalk it up to a learning experience.

So, your scenario is a collector drops $700 on a raw '59 Mantle, and is hopeful that the card will grade a 5. The collector then alters the card before submitting to a TPG for grading. Uh, no. Collectors can be an odd bunch but not that farking odd.

Now, could the collector have submitted a different '59 Mantle for grading then the card purchased? Yes. I agree that it would be hard for the dealer to ascertain if the card was the same as the one previously sold. So, in this scenario, the collector has a '59 Mantle at home. Attends a show with the premediated intention of finding a '59 Mantle that will grade a 5 and drops $700 on a card in better condition then the card at home. Leaves the show, submits the card at home which is graded NO. At the next show brings the NO card in from home in hopes that the dealer will refund the $700. I am having a hard time boarding that crazy train.

There are bad apples in every group, but overall the collectors I have dealt with over the last 40 plus years have all been solid honest people. Mintacular (aka Minty) stated that the card was purchased at a local show. Perhaps, Minty has purchased cards from this dealer on a regular basis. Perhaps the dealer sees Minty as a walking ATM machine and looks forward to seeing Minty at the show. I don't get the feeling that the dealer stated "if that card doesn't grade a 5, I will refund your money". There was nothing implied. So, Minty is likely sol. That said, if the dealer appreciates Minty's business and knows Minty is a good customer, as I stated before perhaps something could be worked out but apparently not from two of the dealers who chimed in here.................

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Huck

So, your scenario is a collector drops $700 on a raw '59 Mantle, and is hopeful that the card will grade a 5. The collector then alters the card before submitting to a TPG for grading. Uh, no. Collectors can be an odd bunch but not that farking odd.

Now, could the collector have submitted a different '59 Mantle for grading then the card purchased? Yes. I agree that it would be hard for the dealer to ascertain if the card was the same as the one previously sold. So, in this scenario, the collector has a '59 Mantle at home. Attends a show with the premediated intention of finding a '59 Mantle that will grade a 5 and drops $700 on a card in better condition then the card at home. Leaves the show, submits the card at home which is graded NO. At the next show brings the NO card in from home in hopes that the dealer will refund the $700. I am having a hard time boarding that crazy train.

There are bad apples in every group, but overall the collectors I have dealt with over the last 40 plus years have all been solid honest people. Mintacular (aka Minty) stated that the card was purchased at a local show. Perhaps, Minty has purchased cards from this dealer on a regular basis. Perhaps the dealer sees Minty as a walking ATM machine and looks forward to seeing Minty at the show. I don't get the feeling that the dealer stated "if that card doesn't grade a 5, I will refund your money". There was nothing implied. So, Minty is likely sol. That said, if the dealer appreciates Minty's business and knows Minty is a good customer, as I stated before perhaps something could be worked out but apparently not from two of the dealers who chimed in here.................

I'm glad that as a seller you've never been scammed, lots of us have.

We back up everything we sell to the hilt, but if you want to take advantage of the guarantee we have to submit the card for you. We're not trying to screw over buyers, we're trying to protect ourselves.

[hcv123]

I agree with a number of opinions already offered here:

1) The price and how it was arrived at doesn't matter. When I am buying raw cards, a seller will not be able to get past the first sentence if they are trying to price "as if" it were graded. I am always paying significantly less for a raw card - there are just too many possible risks (even if it weren't altered) - grading company inconsistency at the top of the list. My response if the seller (on either side of the table) begins "well, a 6 sells for...." is I am not paying a graded price for a raw card. If you want to come back with it in a 6 holder, I'm happy to continue the conversation.

2) If I am buying a card valued over $100 raw, you can bet my ruler, my loupe and a common card from the same set are coming out and that card is going to get a thorough look. If a customer pulls out any or all of the above - not only is it a non-issue, I appreciate seeing it, because it tells me they are taking a lot of care to not write a similar story to this one. If I have a card that I know to be altered, I disclose it and price accordingly.


3) The above and some of the commentary in the thread hopefully will leave you forearmed in the future, but what is "right" in your current situation? As Ryan suggested, I think it is very reasonable for you to approach the dealer and explain the unfolding of events, asking (NOT expecting) if they are willing to do anything about the situation. As has been offered in numerous posts, they are under no obligation to do a thing. If they do offer something - you have to decide whether you prefer to keep the Mantle or take what they offer. If they are unwilling to do anything, write it off as an expensive learning experience and consider whether you want to do business with them in the future.

4) I buy and sell a lot of raw and graded cards. I do not check every single raw card I buy and sell. That said, I ABSOLUTELY check every single raw Mantle (and most cards valued at $100+) that I buy!

5) If you are having a difference of opinion in a conversation like "I think it will grade a ......" and you are willing to take the risk - you may ask for a guarantee of a numeric grade VS. a "No/A" grade. No dealer in their right mind is going to guarantee a specific grade, but some may be willing to guarantee a "number" grade without guaranteeing what the number is. (some may only be willing to do so if you allow them to send the card in - along the lines of the guarantee Scott offers). No have to's on either side- all negotiation.

Sorry you are in the situation. Best of luck with resolution.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I agree with a number of opinions already offered here:



1) The price and how it was arrived at doesn't matter. When I am buying raw cards, a seller will not be able to get past the first sentence if they are trying to price "as if" it were graded. I am always paying significantly less for a raw card - there are just too many possible risks (even if it weren't altered) - grading company inconsistency at the top of the list. My response if the seller (on either side of the table) begins "well, a 6 sells for...." is I am not paying a graded price for a raw card. If you want to come back with it in a 6 holder, I'm happy to continue the conversation.



2) If I am buying a card valued over $100 raw, you can bet my ruler, my loupe and a common card from the same set are coming out and that card is going to get a thorough look. If a customer pulls out any or all of the above - not only is it a non-issue, I appreciate seeing it, because it tells me they are taking a lot of care to not write a similar story to this one. If I have a card that I know to be altered, I disclose it and price accordingly.





3) The above and some of the commentary in the thread hopefully will leave you forearmed in the future, but what is "right" in your current situation? As Ryan suggested, I think it is very reasonable for you to approach the dealer and explain the unfolding of events, asking (NOT expecting) if they are willing to do anything about the situation. As has been offered in numerous posts, they are under no obligation to do a thing. If they do offer something - you have to decide whether you prefer to keep the Mantle or take what they offer. If they are unwilling to do anything, write it off as an expensive learning experience and consider whether you want to do business with them in the future.



4) I buy and sell a lot of raw and graded cards. I do not check every single raw card I buy and sell. That said, I ABSOLUTELY check every single raw Mantle (and most cards valued at $100+) that I buy!



5) If you are having a difference of opinion in a conversation like "I think it will grade a ......" and you are willing to take the risk - you may ask for a guarantee of a numeric grade VS. a "No/A" grade. No dealer in their right mind is going to guarantee a specific grade, but some may be willing to guarantee a "number" grade without guaranteeing what the number is. (some may only be willing to do so if you allow them to send the card in - along the lines of the guarantee Scott offers). No have to's on either side- all negotiation.



Sorry you are in the situation. Best of luck with resolution.

Howard, I appreciate your comments, that was well said.

I've bought 100 cards from you and hope to buy 100 more. Thank goodness all dealers are not as straightforward and trustworthy as you, I would be broke by now.

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