Braves want Heritage to pull Hank Aaron items from auction

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

I mean a lot of the way these companies "photo match" or "authenticate" pieces from decades ago, is really grey and sketchy.

Eric

I will make a prediction now that I guarantee will happen at some point, with spectacular ramifications to the GU community.

There shall be a prominent photo match company that will assert a jersey or bat was definitely used at some very historic moment. With such assertion, this item will sell for huge money. However, another very similar item will surface, and a different respected photo match authority will declare this item is, in fact, the real, genuine GU jersey or bat, and not the previously authenticated one.

Much chaos shall ensue.

-Nostradamus

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I will make a prediction now that I guarantee will happen at some point, with spectacular ramifications to the GU community.

There shall be a prominent photo match company that will assert a jersey or bat was definitely used at some very historic moment. With such assertion, this item will sell for huge money. However, another very similar item will surface, and a different respected photo match authority will declare this item is, in fact, the real, genuine GU jersey or bat, and not the previously authenticated one.

Much chaos shall ensue.

-Nostradamus

Looking forward to see how this plays out.

If you look at some of the "so-called" photo-matches done today, they are not clear-cut matches. Enlarging images (especially older ones) can distort the actual image, making you having to look hard at it to see if it's an actual photo-match. Many people just accept it today. Hey, I got a letter saying it's a match, so I'm good to go. Not true in many cases. I've been burned a few times myself, and learned my lesson, so always proceed with caution.

[swarmee]

That stuff has already happened: https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/mi...-certification
https://petapixel.com/2023/09/06/fak...-jersey-fraud/

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Looking forward to see how this plays out.

If you look at some of the "so-called" photo-matches done today, they are not clear-cut matches. Enlarging images (especially older ones) can distort the actual image, making you having to look hard at it to see if it's an actual photo-match. Many people just accept it today. Hey, I got a letter saying it's a match, so I'm good to go. Not true in many cases. I've been burned a few times myself, and learned my lesson, so always proceed with caution.

Photo-matching can never ever ever ever be used to establish an item is authentic. Photo-matching is what is referred to as a negative test. It can prove what something is not; it cannot establish what something is. If an item does not match, then one can conclusively say it is not real. If an item matches, the most one can say is that it might be real.

In regard to multi-million dollar jerseys, I can assure you that as I write this there are people who are examining every known photograph of a player wearing a particular jersey at a particular time to be certain that their subsequent manufacture of a forgery MADE WITH GENUINE MATERIALS VINTAGE TO THE PERIOD OF ORIGINAL MANUFACTURE matches every discernible feature shown on the photographs. For my dollar, unless the item comes with persuasive provenance it would not satisfy my comfort level to purchase. And by persuasive provenance, I mean more than just a great story of how the item has been in the family for so many years or was obtained by some person who knew the player or worked for the team. For stories such as those, unless they are corroborated by a detective agency, they are worthless. And when have you ever heard of an AH hiring such a detective agency?

We're talking about 7 and 8 figure items here, and if that fact alone doesn't incentivize every known forger extant in the human race, then nothing will.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Photo-matching can never ever ever ever be used to establish an item is authentic. Photo-matching is what is referred to as a negative test. It can prove what something is not; it cannot establish what something is. If an item does not match, then one can conclusively say it is not real. If an item matches, the most one can say is that it might be real.

If an item does match, then one can conclusively say it is real.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Photo-matching can never ever ever ever be used to establish an item is authentic. Photo-matching is what is referred to as a negative test. It can prove what something is not; it cannot establish what something is. If an item does not match, then one can conclusively say it is not real. If an item matches, the most one can say is that it might be real.

In regard to multi-million dollar jerseys, I can assure you that as I write this there are people who are examining every known photograph of a player wearing a particular jersey at a particular time to be certain that their subsequent manufacture of a forgery MADE WITH GENUINE MATERIALS VINTAGE TO THE PERIOD OF ORIGINAL MANUFACTURE matches every discernible feature shown on the photographs. For my dollar, unless the item comes with persuasive provenance it would not satisfy my comfort level to purchase. And by persuasive provenance, I mean more than just a great story of how the item has been in the family for so many years or was obtained by some person who knew the player or worked for the team. For stories such as those, unless they are corroborated by a detective agency, they are worthless. And when have you ever heard of an AH hiring such a detective agency?

We're talking about 7 and 8 figure items here, and if that fact alone doesn't incentivize every known forger extant in the human race, then nothing will.

Exactly, Corey. Exactly.

This is why I have always been queasy about this end of the hobby. As noted, I do have a handful of game used pieces, but their value is such that nobody would have wasted their time in forging them. They carry more sentimental value to me than a dollar value to the rest of the world.

I've heard many people on this forum and elsewhere who have expressed their uncomfortablilty entering the autograph realm for similar reasons. I understand their hesitation, but after a lifetime of acquisition, study and research, I'm extremely thankful to not share in that trepidation. I would feel the same way about any field in which I hadn't thoroughly attempted to educate myself over an extended period. There are naturally reasons (which we've discussed to death) that people end up getting burned in various collectibles realms due to inadequate knowledge. When starting out, it seems that there may only be one safer path to take vs. many possible missteps. "Safer"--not fail-safe!

[packs]

I think the Braves and HOF claims are both as dependent on a story as the groundskeeper tale. Because something belongs or belonged to the HOF doesn’t make it what it’s purported to be. Something can only be what it is not what it is said to be. I think it would very difficult to separate fact from fiction in either scenario and as a result all items must be doubted.

[jsfriedm]

General objections to photo-matching aside, would this particular story make anyone here more hesitant about trusting Heritage specifically when it comes to something like bidding on the 1932 Ruth jersey?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

General objections to photo-matching aside, would this particular story make anyone here more hesitant about trusting Heritage specifically when it comes to something like bidding on the 1932 Ruth jersey?

Precisely my point. Zero chance it's legit, IMHO. The actual "Called shot" has been discussed and disputed for years and now this. It's just another comedic Scam in a hobby swimming in them.

[icollectDCsports]

Collecting game used and game worn items is a unique and, I think, wonderful niche of the overall hobby. Based on the info presented in the article, I don’t have an opinion on the accuracy of the auction description and attribution, but I would say that there is a wide range of certainty with respect to the authenticity and attribution of such items. It’s up to the prospective buyers as to whether the information presented, together with any info (such as photos) they can independently find, gives them the degree of certainty they need to spend what it will take to acquire particular items. The concerns involved are obviously similar to those in the hobby’s other niches, card trimming and alterations, autograph forgeries, etc. In other words, you need some experience in a niche in order to set that comfort level scale for yourself in the first place. In the game used niche, some items are more difficult to authenticate than others, and nailing down specific date of use adds another layer of difficulty. The more generic the item, such as older bases, provenance and chain of custody evidence are critical. Here, there are competing claims of provenance. As someone else noted, even players don’t always know the details of what they have in their possession. Interestingly, some players have denied the authenticity of uniform their items being sold by others likely because they resent the big bucks that others are making from their old jerseys and such. As for photo matching, collectors need to visually examine the claims for themselves. Some claimed photo matches are clearer than others, and some items lend themselves to matching better than others. Seeing a bat conclusively photomatched due to wood grain patterns, for example, is very cool. Overall, while absolute certainty in game used collecting is rare, it’s a rewarding part of the hobby for those willing to put in the time to learn. And the point is that the process of learning is fun.