Safeguards at shows

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- if you truly believe that showing an ID I “jumping through a hoop”, then you may be part of the problem rather than the solution. The effort- if that’s even the right word- required to open a wallet and display a card is minimal. Jeesh…. Steve B- I didn’t state, nor would I want, ID checkers to copy a license or passport at the door. I’d suggest they make sure the photo on the ID matches the person holding it, and perhaps (I don’t run card shows) write name and ID type on a legal pad/IPad. That’s it, nothing more. Such an effort isn’t “meaningless security theater” IF it’s done diligently. It may well discourage potential thieves from even attempting the crime in the first place. The idea is for a combination of dealer vigilance and more formal security measures to put a dent in theft. The idea is sound, it breaks down only when promoters/dealers/customers insist that security is up to everyone but themselves. I don’t claim to have all the answers; however, pushing the problem or balking at basic concepts simply helps the bad guys. Trent King

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

In simplest terms, I'm hosting a card show in a synagogue. We not only have the issue of potential theft (thankfully I'm not aware in all these years of anything close to being major taken except from our prize table back in the day.) We also frankly have the issue of Anti-Semitism which can pop up in ways we don't want to think about. We are not a public place and thus can have more stringent rules for people verification.

Trust me, I don't want to do this but it's something which absolutely has to be considered in today's world and it's not something I (nor the brotherhood board and the synagogue board) take lightly.

Rich

This is an important piece to the puzzle and does make me understand your concern, I did not realize the extra piece. I still would rather have a 150 buck Nest cam at the entrance as I think it accomplishes more and is far more intimidating to a criminal as the social media army frankly does quicker investigations than the police in many or most of these cases.

That said, the synagogue changes the dynamic. The amount of open and accepted antisemitism makes me sick now. Do as you wish, but taking those new items into account, I think the camera is more needed now. I know most people ignore or overlook it, but next time you leave the grocery store or bank notice the measurement chart next to the door. This is to provide the height info for any issues. I would add one to the entrance in the cameras view as well...even if it's painters tape marked.

Sorry you have to worry about this and it is far more important than cards.

[Rich Klein]

Is one of my friends had his "fanny pack full of cash" stolen from behind his table when the person next to him invited a whole bunch of people behind their table.

In this case, there was not a vendor pass or anything else required and it was a pure robbery of cash. Thankfully he could absorb the financial loss but it was a major wake up call for the DCS people.
'
So that theft may actually in retrospect help solve this theft.

Rich

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

LEHR- if you truly believe that showing an ID I “jumping through a hoop”, then you may be part of the problem rather than the solution. The effort- if that’s even the right word- required to open a wallet and display a card is minimal. Jeesh….

Once again you completely missed the point someone was trying to make.
Why should I have to take any extra steps when the burden of security should rely on the show promotor and the dealer. Hire more/better security. Actually be accountable for your inventory. And I'm not trying to be part of the solution as it's not my problem to solve.
Showing ID is just a Band-Aid for a much bigger problem and I also don't trust that a show promotor wouldn't sell my information if they could make a buck. We know this hobby is just full of upstanding citizens.

Just my $0.02. You don't have to agree with it.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

Considering that tickets, at least to the National, are bought via CC and have names attached to them, this point is wildly overblown fear and elaborate.

Additionally people are petrified of handing over an ID to match names on the ticket but will readily do the same to purchase alcohol, pickup tickets from will call at sporting or other events, visit most buildings / workplaces (at least in most businesses and buildings nowadays). Additionally any ticket bought ahead would have billing attached to it. All someone checking ID needs to do is mark the ticket buyer there and that their tickets have been picked up, they don't need to input all ID info again.

Here is a newsflash, the paranoia of people to not want to hand over ID to enter a show is actually funny. People use ID virtually daily to do hundreds of different things. You'll show ti to prove who you are to fly, drive, buy alcohol, cigarettes. You'll tap a phone or CC reader with a chip card in 2.5 seconds without thinking twice. Guess what, ALL that data gets stored and is identifiable in the exact same manner. Also there is far more sensitive data embedded in both those devices.

If someone wants to steal they are going to do their best to do so, using due diligence and not flaunting big dollar items or large blocks of cash unnecessarily is a big key to all of this.

Of course, if your expensive pieces and big dollar items are in a display case for sale you're going to be openly displaying what you have to anyone walking by. Insure yourself accordingly,

[Yoda]

Given the lax gun laws in Texas, I wonder how many dealers were packing? I know I would draw down on some guy walking away with my case holding a couple of million bucks worth of some of the most precious cards in the hobby, while yelling for security, if there was any, at the top of my lungs.
Some 15 years on, I am still haunted by a theft at my table at a Ft. Washington show. Can't imagine how Ash feels.

[Johnny630]

Dealers could be packing but you're not going to be pulling your weapon on someone for just stealing/walking off with your merchandise. I'm all for lawful carry and protecting yourself but in this case a gun would have done nothing.

[sb1]

This was not an $80 or 100 card it was $2million worth. In our booth we have a police officer/dealer and another dealer with conceal carry and armed. Also there are Allen police officers in all parts of the building during show hours. Apparently not any after the show closes.

[G1911]

I'm a little disturbed some people appear to think that drawing a gun or shooting a snatch and grab thief at a card show is somehow realistic or appropriate. It's not in any way a reasonable response to a card thief in a room crowded with innocent people. Come on

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- You went from opinion to fact, and blew it. I have not "missed the
point". The point is that a hobby consisting of involvement from multiple
groups of people (hobbyists/dealers/show promoters), that is confronted by
a potentially serious problem affecting each group, can't simply pass the
problem to one group if they wish to address that problem fully and well.

Your take is, sadly, somewhat typical of a segment of the hobby: there's a
problem, I don't want to be stung by it, but I'm not willing to lift the
smallest finger to address it. The notion that showing a photo ID is
somehow supposed to be taxing and extraordinary is absurd, it makes no
sense. A person's "2 cents" must have some basis in reality, even if slight,
to be taken seriously. It's obvious this is everyone's problem rather than
everybody else's problem but mine. The issue is how best to resolve it.

Trent King

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

LEHR- You went from opinion to fact, and blew it. I have not "missed the
point". The point is that a hobby consisting of involvement from multiple
groups of people (hobbyists/dealers/show promoters), that is confronted by
a potentially serious problem affecting each group, can't simply pass the
problem to one group if they wish to address that problem fully and well.

Your take is, sadly, somewhat typical of a segment of the hobby: there's a
problem, I don't want to be stung by it, but I'm not willing to lift the
smallest finger to address it. The notion that showing a photo ID is
somehow supposed to be taxing and extraordinary is absurd, it makes no
sense. A person's "2 cents" must have some basis in reality, even if slight,
to be taken seriously. It's obvious this is everyone's problem rather than
everybody else's problem but mine. The issue is how best to resolve it.

Trent King

Trent,

You're trying to make someone else's problem everyone's problem.
Example: If someone breaks into my house and steals my safe, is that my neighbors problem? Hell no. I should have had installed a better security system, I should have bolted the safe to the floor as an added deterrent, or I should have let fewer people know about the safe to begin with. I'm not going to run out and start a neighborhood watch and waste everyone else's time over my problem. It's called personal accountability which is also lacking for a lot of people.

And as far as the ID's go, I was making fake ID's at 16 and even given the technological advances, I bet I could make a pretty convincing one now given the time. Do you really think the 17 year old kid or 51 year old mom of four manning the doors at these card shows are going to know the difference in real of fake ID, or even give a rats ass? It's not like show promotors are hiring TSA agents to screen you as you walk in.

But regardless, we will never see eye to eye on this so there's no sense in going back and forth, so this will be my last response. Please come back in a year or two and post on this thread to let us know about how your ID idea saved the hobby from the boogieman.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

I think that this might be the best solution. I would pay to watch the results.

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- Congrats, you graduated from merely being lazy to being a jerk.
(When someone tells you who they are, believe them.) To your "points":

1) I'm not coming back in a year or two to satisfy your post, that's out.

2) The ID idea isn't mine, plenty of people have suggested it.

3) I have stressed multiple times that dealers and promoters are
accountable too. Your ability to ignore clearly stated remarks is
extraordinary.

4) Bad guys aren't the "boogeyman", your attempt at being snide needs a
lot of work. They are a small percentage of people who decent folks can
foil if we remotely agree to be on the same team.

5) Your amateur hour comments are a wonderful illustration of why it's
harder than it should be, to solve an obvious issue. Keep that head
buried in the sand!

Trent King

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

+1 Or someone fast that can tackle

[samosa4u]

Any dealers that mostly have high-end stuff should be put in a different part of the building where there is more security. You will also need to show two pieces of government-issued ID in order to get in and out of the high-end section. This isn't the perfect solution, but it will definitely make a big difference IMO.

[1954 topps]

Dealers need to take the precautions needed to secure their own investment in their business. Sure security cameras are great but when you only see stuff getting stolen and walking away without the crime being prevented it’s too late. You incurred the loss.

While at the East Coast National last year, a dealer was showing multiple cards to a buyer. Once the buyer left I come by looking through the cases and what do I see sitting on top of one of cases. A 1953 Mantle PSA 6. I couldn’t believe it, I look up at the dealer and he’s two tables down chatting with his buddy. I pick up the card, walk over to him and say hey “ You left this out on your case, I didn’t want someone to walk off with this” His oh shit look on his face said it all. I’m not going to say who’s table it was but let’s just say it was in the basement level… if you are aware and can connect the dots you can likely guess who this was.😬 Sadly this is not the first time this has happened to me at shows.

Please lock your cards back up, pay attention, get off your damn phones, and be vigilant. Your cases should be locked 100% of the time during shows.. At the end of the show each day valuable cards should be going into a safe directly and that safe should be strapped to your wrist until you get to your vehicle. Always have a trusted friend or colleague with you during transport and if you want mace or pepper spray go for it. Protecting your assets are your responsibility and nobody else’s.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Any dealers that mostly have high-end stuff should be put in a different part of the building where there is more security. You will also need to show two pieces of government-issued ID in order to get in and out of the high-end section. This isn't the perfect solution, but it will definitely make a big difference IMO.

I can’t tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by notfast

I can’t tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

I'm being serious ...

When I attend a show, I will see one dealer with a Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobbs, Mantles, etc. and the guy next to him has garbage, and the one next to him is selling UltraPro stuff, and the one next to him selling baseball commons, and the one next to him mango juice ... who do you think needs the security?

The high-rollers need to be separated from the rest. You show the doorman your ID and it gets logged into their system. That way, they know exactly who is inside.

And the buyers who deal with the big boys need protection too. Imagine you wanna' get your hands on a PSA 7 Aaron RC. You bring with you some high-end cards (trade bait) and some cash. You wanna' go where you can feel safe, right? More security ... more cameras ... and a check has been done on everyone ...

If this is the way they did things, then NO WAY would Ash have had his cards stolen ... no freaking way ...

[ClementeFanOh]

Samosa4u- I can smell what you're cooking, it's an idea at least worthy of
consideration even if not implemented. The problem on these boards is that
there are individuals who are either a) lazy and disinterested even in a notion
that protects them or b) scruffy individualists who consider any such measures
somehow to be an affront to their "liberty" (even though they merely hint at
this and won't come right out and say it.) Something needs to change for sure
on the part of all parties, and the "I've always done it x or y way and won't
change" routine ain't it. Fighting the premise isn't a promising start.

Trent King

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm being serious ...

When I attend a show, I will see one dealer with a Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobbs, Mantles, etc. and the guy next to him has garbage, and the one next to him is selling UltraPro stuff, and the one next to him selling baseball commons, and the one next to him mango juice ... who do you think needs the security?

The high-rollers need to be separated from the rest. You show the doorman your ID and it gets logged into their system. That way, they know exactly who is inside.

And the buyers who deal with the big boys need protection too. Imagine you wanna' get your hands on a PSA 7 Aaron RC. You bring with you some high-end cards (trade bait) and some cash. You wanna' go where you can feel safe, right? More security ... more cameras ... and a check has been done on everyone ...

If this is the way they did things, then NO WAY would Ash have had his cards stolen ... no freaking way ...

I actually don't think you could convince the high-end dealers to segregate themselves for a number of reasons.

[Exhibitman]

This is all a really good argument for holding shows at casino conference centers. I cannot think of any other type of venue that offers state of the art surveillance of public spaces and hardcore private armed security as SOP. NSCC Las Vegas, baby!

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

NSCC Las Vegas, baby!

Since I'm an hour by air or six hours in the car away from Las Vegas I'd love to see that happen.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This is all a really good argument for holding shows at casino conference centers. I cannot think of any other type of venue that offers state of the art surveillance of public spaces and hardcore private armed security as SOP. NSCC Las Vegas, baby!

I miss when the Philly show was at Valley Forge....I think a lot of dealers prefer that locations over the Oaks Venue.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Samosa4u- I can smell what you're cooking, it's an idea at least worthy of
consideration even if not implemented. The problem on these boards is that
there are individuals who are either a) lazy and disinterested even in a notion
that protects them or b) scruffy individualists who consider any such measures
somehow to be an affront to their "liberty" (even though they merely hint at
this and won't come right out and say it.) Something needs to change for sure
on the part of all parties, and the "I've always done it x or y way and won't
change" routine ain't it. Fighting the premise isn't a promising start.

Trent King

It’s weird how you keep calling people lazy because they don’t agree with what you think protects them.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I miss when the Philly show was at Valley Forge....I think a lot of dealers prefer that locations over the Oaks Venue.

Most dealers I've talked to at the show prefer Oaks because it's a lot easier for them to unload and then load out. The Valley Forge show was downstairs and much harder to get stuff in and out of is what I've been told.

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast-

It's weird that you can't type more than one brief sentence. Are you
on a net54 economy plan?

Also, your comment about "laziness" is, ironically enough, lazy in and of
itself. It's definitely the case that some folks who object to added security
ideas lack the energy to accomplish them, regardless of their role. It's
also true that some folks have convinced themselves these suggestions are
an intrusion somehow.

Crazy thought- how about suggesting your idea for a security benefit, rather
than merely tear down the ideas of others? Or is that asking too much? I'm
sure your reply will be Pulitzer worthy. Maybe try to reply with substance?

Trent King

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast-

It's weird that you can't type more than one brief sentence. Are you
on a net54 economy plan?

Also, your comment about "laziness" is, ironically enough, lazy in and of
itself. It's definitely the case that some folks who object to added security
ideas lack the energy to accomplish them, regardless of their role. It's
also true that some folks have convinced themselves these suggestions are
an intrusion somehow.

Crazy thought- how about suggesting your idea for a security benefit, rather
than merely tear down the ideas of others? Or is that asking too much? I'm
sure your reply will be Pulitzer worthy. Maybe try to reply with substance?

Trent King

Not reading prior posts in the thread with other suggestions seems like something a lazy and disinterested person would do.

Originally Posted by notfast

Producing and showing ID is pointless unless the information is being stored. That’s where the liability would come in to play. Who’s is keeping this info? What are they doing with it? What happens if there is a breach?

The solution that is most reasonable is more visible cameras and more visible security. These deter the majority of criminals.

Then everyone needs to be responsible for security of their own space.

One guy working the booth should never happen unless someone is going to the bathroom or grabbing food to bring back. Need multiple workers always.

Never hand cards to more than one person at a time. Make sure showcases are locked and back stock is secure. This could be as simple as having a case with a handle bike locked to a table leg or a standalone safe. Even simple deterrents such as moving cash box/envelope location often are usually not considered. I could go on and on. Nothing is incredibly difficult its just that most people don’t have the experience of dealing with people essentially trying to shoplift.

The majority of people (including cops and paid security officers) do not have the experience needed to prevent retail theft except by their existing and showing presence…which it’s important so this should always be the top priority of all shows.

Originally Posted by notfast

Tickets could be forced to be paid for via electronic payment which would give some sort of tracking. Combine that with entry cameras and a scanner scanning a unique ticket # and maybe you’d have something that could be traceable to a card payment that wouldn’t involve another entity needing personal information.

Edit - but then you run in to situations (like sporting events now a days) where people don’t use cards or are too young for them.

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast- you do go on when putting the onus on everyone but yourself, I'll
give you that. The problem is that your cited input is essentially a deflection
of any sort of personal responsibility at shows. According to you, everyone
else involved- show promoters, sellers and assistants, any sort of hired
security- must exert themselves without fail, so that YOU don't have to show
legitimate identification. The key to limiting access to unknown bad guys is
to make those who wish enter, account for who they are. Capisce? It's also
the least labor intensive of any step you mentioned- yet it's a no-no because
your sense of liberty is somehow bruised. The goal here is to come up with a
plan to best confound thieves, not how to best placate extremely sensitive
adults at shows. Would a designated "safe space" at a show, help to calm
your delicate sensibilities? Good lord.

Trent King

PS- Your remarked several posts ago that it would be your last on the
subject. How's that comment holding up?

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast- you do go on when putting the onus on everyone but yourself, I'll
give you that. The problem is that your cited input is essentially a deflection
of any sort of personal responsibility at shows. According to you, everyone
else involved- show promoters, sellers and assistants, any sort of hired
security- must exert themselves without fail, so that YOU don't have to show
legitimate identification. The key to limiting access to unknown bad guys is
to make those who wish enter, account for who they are. Capisce? It's also
the least labor intensive of any step you mentioned- yet it's a no-no because
your sense of liberty is somehow bruised. The goal here is to come up with a
plan to best confound thieves, not how to best placate extremely sensitive
adults at shows. Would a designated "safe space" at a show, help to calm
your delicate sensibilities? Good lord.

Trent King

I don’t even know how to respond to this but I guess I’ll try. I literally copy/pasted what I thought should be done and you either mixed my comments up with someone else’s or are just glossing over them because you don’t agree.


-Increased visible security (said this twice in one post and that it should be the top priority)
-Increased cameras that are visible (think TV monitor showing your face when you walk in like retailers do)

And then the kicker…INCREASED personal responsibility for those set up..but then again, it really shouldn’t be an increase because it should be a top priority already.

In regards to it being not labor intensive…maybe. If you’re legitimately just looking at ID’s then you are right. But that would really serve little to no purpose in deterring theft, as I stated earlier in this thread. If you’re collecting, verifying, maintaining & storing ID information, that would be VERY labor intensive and likely cost prohibitive…especially at a larger venue.

Also, pretty weird you’re talking about “safe spaces” and “delicate sensibilities” when you’re the one who is obviously getting hot and bothered that others don’t agree fully support your single idea.

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

PS- Your remarked several posts ago that it would be your last on the
subject. How's that comment holding up?

Yeah…you’re mixing up comments.

[notfast]

Double post. Whoops.

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast- I'm not mixing up deluded, self serving ideas though. Looks like
you and Lehr are cut from the same cloth! (That's not a compliment in this
case). Your position is that 95% of the populace at a show should
do as little as humanly possible to address a growing issue, out of sheer
convenience or a "you're here to serve me" attitude. Got it, sounds wise.
Great call! (I'll skip the smarmy meme).

Trent King

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by notfast

I don’t even know how to respond to this but I guess I’ll try. I literally copy/pasted what I thought should be done and you either mixed my comments up with someone else’s or are just glossing over them because you don’t agree.


-Increased visible security (said this twice in one post and that it should be the top priority)
-Increased cameras that are visible (think TV monitor showing your face when you walk in like retailers do)

And then the kicker…INCREASED personal responsibility for those set up..but then again, it really shouldn’t be an increase because it should be a top priority already.

In regards to it being not labor intensive…maybe. If you’re legitimately just looking at ID’s then you are right. But that would really serve little to no purpose in deterring theft, as I stated earlier in this thread. If you’re collecting, verifying, maintaining & storing ID information, that would be VERY labor intensive and likely cost prohibitive…especially at a larger venue.

Also, pretty weird you’re talking about “safe spaces” and “delicate sensibilities” when you’re the one who is obviously getting hot and bothered that others don’t agree fully support your single idea.



Yeah…you’re mixing up comments.

Matt, you can't argue with a narcissist. This guy is so self absorbed he will never acknowledge any point of view other than his own. Anything else is just...lazy.
Good luck.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast- I'm not mixing up deluded, self serving ideas though. Looks like
you and Lehr are cut from the same cloth! (That's not a compliment in this
case). Your position is that 95% of the populace at a show should
do as little as humanly possible to address a growing issue, out of sheer
convenience or a "you're here to serve me" attitude. Got it, sounds wise.
Great call! (I'll skip the smarmy meme).

Trent King

You’re upset that I don’t agree with what you think will “fix” a situation so you jump to inane conclusions and throw weird insults. I guess that’s about par for the course in the world today.

I’m actually disappointed at myself for engaging with you. It was obvious how things would go.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast- you do go on when putting the onus on everyone but yourself, I'll
give you that. The problem is that your cited input is essentially a deflection
of any sort of personal responsibility at shows. According to you, everyone
else involved- show promoters, sellers and assistants, any sort of hired
security- must exert themselves without fail, so that YOU don't have to show
legitimate identification. The key to limiting access to unknown bad guys is
to make those who wish enter, account for who they are. Capisce? It's also
the least labor intensive of any step you mentioned- yet it's a no-no because
your sense of liberty is somehow bruised. The goal here is to come up with a
plan to best confound thieves, not how to best placate extremely sensitive
adults at shows. Would a designated "safe space" at a show, help to calm
your delicate sensibilities? Good lord.

[ALBB]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast- you do go on when putting the onus on everyone but yourself, I'll
give you that. The problem is that your cited input is essentially a deflection
of any sort of personal responsibility at shows. According to you, everyone
else involved- show promoters, sellers and assistants, any sort of hired
security- must exert themselves without fail, so that YOU don't have to show
legitimate identification. The key to limiting access to unknown bad guys is
to make those who wish enter, account for who they are. Capisce? It's also
the least labor intensive of any step you mentioned- yet it's a no-no because
your sense of liberty is somehow bruised. The goal here is to come up with a
plan to best confound thieves, not how to best placate extremely sensitive
adults at shows. Would a designated "safe space" at a show, help to calm
your delicate sensibilities? Good lord.

Trent King

PS- Your remarked several posts ago that it would be your last on the
subject. How's that comment holding up?

Oh, is that how you spell Capisce ?

I thought it was - GaBeesh

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

LEHR- Congrats, you graduated from merely being lazy to being a jerk.
(When someone tells you who they are, believe them.)

Projecting..


100% lies on the dealer. Their stuff, their responsibility