Safeguards at shows

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Two thoughts come to mind when people call for enhanced security as a
way to reduce risk of theft at card shows (theft by deception, not robbery):

1) Cost. I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read a dealer complain
about the high cost of tables at bigger shows on this venue. Extra duty
police cost money, and the amount isn't small. Most police are paid
significantly more for extra-duty work than on-duty work, and the per
hour cost may shock some of you. Is it worth it? Enough to increase
your table cost? You would need to judge. The same may well be true
for added cameras, etc. (I'm not giving an answer, just posing the
question).

I spent 12 years in law enforcement (1995-2007). I can tell you that during those years off duty jobs generally paid $20-$25 per hour. You might even catch a really good gig at $30 an hour once in a while. I cannot imagine what the guys are getting now but I’m sure it’s considerably more.

[Jewish-collector]

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

[ClementeFanOh]

Vintagedeputy-

I know for a fact that, at Ohio State home football games in 2023, there was
a shortage of police for security (extra-duty not on-duty). Prospective officers
were offered $100 per hour, and spots went unfilled.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have an increase in uniformed
LE at appropriate shows. I'm merely pointing to the cost, and the proclivity
of sellers on this board to grouse about- you guessed it-costs.

Trent King

[JustinD]

Security is a nice feel good measure but unlikely to make drastic change. Let’s be honest, most of these happen when someone is distracted, busy or other. If if have 10s of thousands, 100s or even as described millions in merchandise I want descriptions and identifying info. Six cheap nest cams should cover any table well. Two focused on my table top at each side, two facing the crowd for faces and two in the rear of my booth facing outward. I want 100s of frames of film to post if anything comes up missing.

As for personal protection, other than doing your best for a connecting hotel and traveling with another set of eyes there’s not much more to be done. Other than Cleveland, the national is held in locations in which even providing yourself protection will get you more time than anyone would serve if they robbed you. I am a personal protection person, but no way my CPL is worth trying anywhere but Ohio. I sure as hell am not protecting myself in Chicago without losing my freedom for years even if I am in the right.

We can yell for police all you want, but the best thing is just evidence and not believing they are magically going to be everywhere.

[Steve_NY]

I am very concerned about theft -- and setting up a booth at the National is always a challenge.

I now LOCK all of my showcases -- and I don't allow anyone to remove a card from my binders. I personally remove all cards and wrappers from my binders. Obviously, I lose customers that way but guess what -- I don't lose cards or wrappers that way.

It's very sad that a high percentage of the large thefts are so called friends that you allow to review your items with limited supervsion. Those are the ones you have to watch out for.

I even had a collector who had asked if my wife could watch his daughter so she was distracted while he stole an expensive pack.

I hope the National will do more overnight security this year. If you walk around the show after it is closed, I always find collectors walking around at almost 6:30 when they should have left the room a half hour before.

Any one have other security ideas for booth holders?

Steve_NY

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Vintagedeputy-

I know for a fact that, at Ohio State home football games in 2023, there was
a shortage of police for security (extra-duty not on-duty). Prospective officers
were offered $100 per hour, and spots went unfilled.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have an increase in uniformed
LE at appropriate shows. I'm merely pointing to the cost, and the proclivity
of sellers on this board to grouse about- you guessed it-costs.

Trent King

I’m actually not surprised that even at $100 per hour, there was difficulty in finding officers. Officers these days have a wealth of opportunities - no pun intended - for off duty work as well as overtime. They generally look for really easy jobs with low chances of there being problems or having to make a arrest.

Having worked college football games before myself, I can imagine that many officers would try to stay away from those details because they can get rowdy and out of hand.

[G1911]

Be attentive and vigilant is really all that can be done.

Cops or more cops wandering around wouldn't have likely stopped either theft. They aren't forceful seizures followed by an obvious perp running away and needing to be chased by the law. The Strongsville theft in particular is not something any show could have reasonably done anything to prevent (short of the possessor having the basic common sense not to mail millions in cards to a Best Western...).

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.

Watching your stuff or having someone you trust watch your stuff and being aware of your surroundings is about all one can do when in a public place with expensive things.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by G1911

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.
.

That would be a given. If you are responding to my comment, it was directed to Scott’s post above of being followed to motels or home in his worst example.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

Be attentive and vigilant is really all that can be done.

Cops or more cops wandering around wouldn't have likely stopped either theft. They aren't forceful seizures followed by an obvious perp running away and needing to be chased by the law. The Strongsville theft in particular is not something any show could have reasonably done anything to prevent (short of the possessor having the basic common sense not to mail millions in cards to a Best Western...).

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.

Watching your stuff or having someone you trust watch your stuff and being aware of your surroundings is about all one can do when in a public place with expensive things.

Having visible security around at the end of the Dallas show may have helped prevent the theft since more eyes watching may have made the thieves less likely to try anything.

[ajenks3378]

I own a small business in the western suburbs of Cleveland…and in our community to hire auxiliary police officers it costs $125 an hour.
So I am sure The National is spending some good money on security.
Andy

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

I think that this might be the best solution. I would pay to watch the results.

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- Congrats, you graduated from merely being lazy to being a jerk.
(When someone tells you who they are, believe them.) To your "points":

1) I'm not coming back in a year or two to satisfy your post, that's out.

2) The ID idea isn't mine, plenty of people have suggested it.

3) I have stressed multiple times that dealers and promoters are
accountable too. Your ability to ignore clearly stated remarks is
extraordinary.

4) Bad guys aren't the "boogeyman", your attempt at being snide needs a
lot of work. They are a small percentage of people who decent folks can
foil if we remotely agree to be on the same team.

5) Your amateur hour comments are a wonderful illustration of why it's
harder than it should be, to solve an obvious issue. Keep that head
buried in the sand!

Trent King

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

LEHR- Congrats, you graduated from merely being lazy to being a jerk.
(When someone tells you who they are, believe them.)

Projecting..


100% lies on the dealer. Their stuff, their responsibility

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

+1 Or someone fast that can tackle

[samosa4u]

Any dealers that mostly have high-end stuff should be put in a different part of the building where there is more security. You will also need to show two pieces of government-issued ID in order to get in and out of the high-end section. This isn't the perfect solution, but it will definitely make a big difference IMO.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Any dealers that mostly have high-end stuff should be put in a different part of the building where there is more security. You will also need to show two pieces of government-issued ID in order to get in and out of the high-end section. This isn't the perfect solution, but it will definitely make a big difference IMO.

I can’t tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by notfast

I can’t tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

I'm being serious ...

When I attend a show, I will see one dealer with a Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobbs, Mantles, etc. and the guy next to him has garbage, and the one next to him is selling UltraPro stuff, and the one next to him selling baseball commons, and the one next to him mango juice ... who do you think needs the security?

The high-rollers need to be separated from the rest. You show the doorman your ID and it gets logged into their system. That way, they know exactly who is inside.

And the buyers who deal with the big boys need protection too. Imagine you wanna' get your hands on a PSA 7 Aaron RC. You bring with you some high-end cards (trade bait) and some cash. You wanna' go where you can feel safe, right? More security ... more cameras ... and a check has been done on everyone ...

If this is the way they did things, then NO WAY would Ash have had his cards stolen ... no freaking way ...

[ClementeFanOh]

Samosa4u- I can smell what you're cooking, it's an idea at least worthy of
consideration even if not implemented. The problem on these boards is that
there are individuals who are either a) lazy and disinterested even in a notion
that protects them or b) scruffy individualists who consider any such measures
somehow to be an affront to their "liberty" (even though they merely hint at
this and won't come right out and say it.) Something needs to change for sure
on the part of all parties, and the "I've always done it x or y way and won't
change" routine ain't it. Fighting the premise isn't a promising start.

Trent King

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm being serious ...

When I attend a show, I will see one dealer with a Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobbs, Mantles, etc. and the guy next to him has garbage, and the one next to him is selling UltraPro stuff, and the one next to him selling baseball commons, and the one next to him mango juice ... who do you think needs the security?

The high-rollers need to be separated from the rest. You show the doorman your ID and it gets logged into their system. That way, they know exactly who is inside.

And the buyers who deal with the big boys need protection too. Imagine you wanna' get your hands on a PSA 7 Aaron RC. You bring with you some high-end cards (trade bait) and some cash. You wanna' go where you can feel safe, right? More security ... more cameras ... and a check has been done on everyone ...

If this is the way they did things, then NO WAY would Ash have had his cards stolen ... no freaking way ...

I actually don't think you could convince the high-end dealers to segregate themselves for a number of reasons.

[1954 topps]

Dealers need to take the precautions needed to secure their own investment in their business. Sure security cameras are great but when you only see stuff getting stolen and walking away without the crime being prevented it’s too late. You incurred the loss.

While at the East Coast National last year, a dealer was showing multiple cards to a buyer. Once the buyer left I come by looking through the cases and what do I see sitting on top of one of cases. A 1953 Mantle PSA 6. I couldn’t believe it, I look up at the dealer and he’s two tables down chatting with his buddy. I pick up the card, walk over to him and say hey “ You left this out on your case, I didn’t want someone to walk off with this” His oh shit look on his face said it all. I’m not going to say who’s table it was but let’s just say it was in the basement level… if you are aware and can connect the dots you can likely guess who this was.😬 Sadly this is not the first time this has happened to me at shows.

Please lock your cards back up, pay attention, get off your damn phones, and be vigilant. Your cases should be locked 100% of the time during shows.. At the end of the show each day valuable cards should be going into a safe directly and that safe should be strapped to your wrist until you get to your vehicle. Always have a trusted friend or colleague with you during transport and if you want mace or pepper spray go for it. Protecting your assets are your responsibility and nobody else’s.