Poll - Greatest Living Player

G1911 · #1 06-28-2024, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

You're using one statistic that doesn't accurately reflect how well he pitched. But if you think he was average until 1962 and then suddenly became the best pitcher ever, that's fine.

You know what, mea culpa. All of the players people like are just better than objectivity suggests despite the math. Koufax was very good even as he gave up league average runs and did a definably average performance at his job.

Carter08 · #2 06-28-2024, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

You know what, mea culpa. All of the players people like are just better than objectivity suggests despite the math. Koufax was very good even as he gave up league average runs and did a definably average performance at his job.

If he was arguing that Spahn was the greater player over Koufax methinks suddenly Koufax�s peak stats would be more important to you out of a desire to be contrarian.

G1911 · #3 06-28-2024, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

If he was arguing that Spahn was the greater player over Koufax methinks suddenly Koufax�s peak stats would be more important to you out of a desire to be contrarian.

You may refer to the 1,000+ post best lefty thread for my opinion there. Please, go find a contradiction! Great opportunity to get me if you can.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 06-28-2024, 06:51 PM

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

jayshum · #5 06-28-2024, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

Koufax did throw over 400 innings more than Pedro and over 200 more than Maddux. Who knows if they would have been able to sustain their level of performance over an equal workload to Koufax. Also, I think people give credit to Koufax for pitching through significant injury.

aro13 · #6 06-28-2024, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By ERA+, Pedro, Maddux and Unit had a better peak stretch than Koufax. Not that Koufax's peak wasn't phenomenal, but I think in some people's minds he gets a bump for nostalgia bias and mystique.

GREATEST 5-YEAR PEAKS BY ERA+

# NAME Years AGE 5Y_IP 5Y_ERA+
1 Pedro Martinez 99--03 29 933 227
2 Greg Maddux 94--98 30 1140.3 202
3 Walter Johnson 11--15 25 1745.7 200
4 Mordecai Brown 06--10 31 1460.7 182
5 Randy Johnson 98--02 36 1274.3 177
6 Lefty Grove 35--39 37 1143 173
7 Christy Mathewson 08--12 29 1601.3 171
8 Sandy Koufax 62--66 28 1377 168
9 Kevin Brown 96--00 33 1209.7 165
10 Hal Newhouser 42--46 23 1297.7 164

If you make it a 7 year stretch Pedro is even better. In 1997 he put up a 1.90 era and threw 13 complete games. It's probably one of the most overlooked great seasons in the past 30 years.
Runs saved is a better metric than ERA+ to evaluate pitchers as it factors in innings pitched as well.

cgjackson222 · #7 06-29-2024, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

If you make it a 7 year stretch Pedro is even better. In 1997 he put up a 1.90 era and threw 13 complete games. It's probably one of the most overlooked great seasons in the past 30 years.
Runs saved is a better metric than ERA+ to evaluate pitchers as it factors in innings pitched as well.

I agree Pedro (and probably every pitcher not named Koufax) is probably underrated in the poll. Where does one find the runs saved metric? Is it on baseball reference or fangraphs, or somewhere else?

aro13 · #8 06-29-2024, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I agree Pedro (and probably every pitcher not named Koufax) is probably underrated in the poll. Where does one find the runs saved metric? Is it on baseball reference or fangraphs, or somewhere else?

Its probably on one of the sites. I calculate it myself. Take Pedro in 2000 - he posted a 1.74 era allowing 42 earned runs. The league average was 5.06 and pitching the same number of innings as Pedro would have allowed 122 runs. Therefore, Pedro saved the Sox 80 earned runs relative to an average pitcher.

Koufax in 1966 posted a 1.73 era and allowed 62 earned runs. The average pitcher in 1966 posted a 3.29 era and allowed 118 earned runs. Koufax saves the Dodgers 56 runs.

If I could only use one star to evaluate pitchers I would choose runs saved. Obviously its not the only important stat.

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest living player today?
Ronald Acuna Jr	1	0.24%
Johnny Bench	16	3.85%
Mookie Betts	0	0%
Barry Bonds	116	27.88%
Steve Carlton	0	0%
Roger Clemens	2	0.48%
Ken Griifey Jr	38	9.13%
Rickey Henderson	27	6.49%
Randy Johnson	3	0.72%
Sandy Koufax	52	12.50%
Greg Maddux	7	1.68%
Pedro Martinez	5	1.20%
Shohei Ohtani	18	4.33%
Albert Pujols	16	3.85%
Cal Ripken Jr	5	1.20%
Alex Rodriguez	0	0%
Pete Rose	39	9.38%
Nolan Ryan	34	8.17%
Mike Schmidt	17	4.09%
Ichiro Suzuki	7	1.68%
Mike Trout	1	0.24%
Other	12	2.88%
Voters: 416. You may not vote on this poll

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