Poll - Greatest Living Player

[samosa4u]

Wow, you guys are nuts ...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Ok, I looked at some basic stats and here are the results of Judge's adjusted stats based on at bats to Pujols career stats.

What does this tell us? This is where Judge is headed if he has the same at bats that Pujols has. Pujols only wins in the hits, but Judge still has 3,000+ hits at this pace.

There are a couple of stats/facts for you.



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Mr Judge would need that Tony Gwynn insane bump in production in his mid/late 30s to end up with those totals. He is definitely my current favorite player. He is kinda like Bonds in that just watching his at bats brings excitement.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Mr Judge would need that Tony Gwynn insane bump in production in his mid/late 30s to end up with those totals. He is definitely my current favorite player. He is kinda like Bonds in that just watching his at bats brings excitement.

Very true Ben. I highly doubt he will end up with those stats, just wanted to compare the pace he is on with Pujols totals. I don't think anyone can compare his current stats with a lifetime stat of someone else. That was kind of what I was saying. I thought the whole conversation was fun though for sure.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Ok, I looked at some basic stats and here are the results of Judge's adjusted stats based on at bats to Pujols career stats.

What does this tell us? This is where Judge is headed if he has the same at bats that Pujols has. Pujols only wins in the hits, but Judge still has 3,000+ hits at this pace.

There are a couple of stats/facts for you.



.

Judge is 32. That's not a realistic comparison. He isn't going to get to 11K at bats when at age 32 he doesn't even have 4K. So how does this mean anything?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm surprised with the results, but it just goes to show you that a lot of Americans don't care about who cheated or not.

If we want to starting looking at things from this perspective, then it's going to complicate things big-time. How do we know who used what and when, and for how long?

Let's take Mickey Mantle, for example. This guy turned the hobby into what it is today. I think he is the GOAT of collectibles. People spend millions on his stuff, even though he did things that would probably get you banned today.

Jane Leavy wrote about how, at one point in his career, he was getting a cocktail of drugs injected into his ass. One day it got badly infected and required surgery. The hole in his ass was so bad, Mantle himself was telling people how you could "put your hand in there." So, what exactly was he getting injected into him and for how long? Also, was everybody else getting these injections? Maybe only some?

So again, a lot of folks are just gonna' look at your numbers, entertainment value, etc., and block out the rest.

Mantle is exempt. Mays is exempt. Aaron is exempt. Anyone for whom we have nostalgia is exempt. They were all clean. Or if they did anything it didn't affect their performance.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is exempt. Mays is exempt. Aaron is exempt. Anyone for whom we have nostalgia is exempt. They were all clean. Or if they did anything it didn't affect their performance.

Yep pretty much unless you played in the "steroid era" you are exempt. My favorite is the one that is linked to a steroid doctor, took amphetamines, and one of his gamers was found to be corked. But he played in a PED free era so he is an all-time great everyone loves.

[LEHR]

I voted for Barry Bonds, even though I'm not a fan.
Sure, he took PED's, but PED's enhance strength, not talent; and you don't put up the number he did without amazing talent. Would he have the records he has without the PED's? No one really knows the answer to that.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is exempt. Mays is exempt. Aaron is exempt. Anyone for whom we have nostalgia is exempt. They were all clean. Or if they did anything it didn't affect their performance.

Yeah, he didn’t skirt MLB testing protocols and knowingly violate established rules as far as I’m aware. The steroid era guys did. Big difference.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Yeah, he didn’t skirt MLB testing protocols and knowingly violate established rules as far as I’m aware. The steroid era guys did. Big difference.

So it doesn't matter if it is illegal for everyone without a prescription as long as it isn't against MLBs rules, makes sense.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by LEHR

I voted for Barry Bonds, even though I'm not a fan.
Sure, he took PED's, but PED's enhance strength, not talent; and you don't put up the number he did without amazing talent. Would he have the records he has without the PED's? No one really knows the answer to that.

There is one person who knows. Like HOFer Pudge Rodriguez said when he was asked if he did steroids, “Only God Knows.”

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Yep pretty much unless you played in the "steroid era" you are exempt. My favorite is the one that is linked to a steroid doctor, took amphetamines, and one of his gamers was found to be corked. But he played in a PED free era so he is an all-time great everyone loves.

Bonds hit 760 home runs. Without PEDs he might have hit 380. Sosa hit 600, I doubt he would have made 300. The effect on their career numbers was huge.

Conversely, nobody really thinks Mantle's totals were significantly affected by whatever he stuck in his butt. Nobody thinks Rose wouldn't still be the all-time hit leader without greenies.

The levels of difference between steroids and other cheating is night and day. Players always will try to get an advantage. Stealing signs, putting Vaseline on balls, banging trash cans, all kinds of things. But they are not all the same.

In most cases, the MLB monitors cheating and adds rules to eliminate its impact. Unfortunately, in the 90s, Selig and Reinsdorf were worried about the popularity of the game and decided to effectively allow steroids and HGH usage to increase offense. Things got out of hand quickly, and journeymen like Sosa became superstars. It was a big mess, and it is still a mess 30 years later.

Let's stay focused on the things that matter. Sosa having 600 home runs is ridiculous. Mays hitting 660 is not.



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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Bonds hit 760 home runs. Without PEDs he might have hit 380. Sosa hit 600, I doubt he would have made 300. The effect on their career numbers was huge.

Conversely, nobody really thinks Mantle's totals were significantly affected by whatever he stuck in his butt. Nobody thinks Rose wouldn't still be the all-time hit leader without greenies.

The levels of difference between steroids and other cheating is night and day. Players always will try to get an advantage. Stealing signs, putting Vaseline on balls, banging trash cans, all kinds of things. But they are not all the same.

In most cases, the MLB monitors cheating and adds rules to eliminate its impact. Unfortunately, in the 90s, Selig and Reinsdorf were worried about the popularity of the game and decided to effectively allow steroids and HGH usage to increase offense. Things got out of hand quickly, and journeymen like Sosa became superstars. It was a big mess, and it is still a mess 30 years later.

Let's stay focused on the things that matter. Sosa having 600 home runs is ridiculous. Mays hitting 660 is not.



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So punish those that had better PEDs?

I really do not see a lot of difference because everyone was on everything and doing anything they could to win/be better. Pitchers and hitter. So the for me everything is even.

I honestly think they should be drug tested daily and if they don't have high levels of PEDs in their system they need fined and possibly suspended if it happens more than once. With the money they make they should be giving the fans their real best. OK most probably already are but lets get it out in the open. Under those oversized uniforms most look like action heroes.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So it doesn't matter if it is illegal for everyone without a prescription as long as it isn't against MLBs rules, makes sense.

Steroids developed to the point MLB stepped in and said this nonsense is banned. A whole group of players said f you to established rules. They have been kept out of the Hall for that reason. I haven’t lost sleep over it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Bonds hit 760 home runs. Without PEDs he might have hit 380. Sosa hit 600, I doubt he would have made 300. The effect on their career numbers was huge.

The story is that Bonds began using steroids in 2000. Through 1999, he had 445 home runs.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Steroids developed to the point MLB stepped in and said this nonsense is banned. A whole group of players said f you to established rules. They have been kept out of the Hall for that reason. I haven’t lost sleep over it.

^^^ This right here ^^^

They're not going in anytime soon, either. They are false. Bonds isn't the greatest for this reason. His stats are false. They don't matter; meaningless. The other ways ballplayers have sought to gain an advantage illegally are kindergarten in comparison. MLB, the writers, etc., all see it this way. They wish these guys would just go away.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The story is that Bonds began using steroids in 2000. Through 1999, he had 445 home runs.

With all due respect facts are not part of this thread.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

The story is that Bonds began using steroids in 2000. Through 1999, he had 445 home runs.

I think he started in 93 or 94, when he started having injury problems. But whatever.

My point is the same: his career numbers are hugely inflated. Rose, Mays and Mantle's are not.

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So punish those that had better PEDs?



I really do not see a lot of difference because everyone was on everything and doing anything they could to win/be better. Pitchers and hitter. So the for me everything is even.



I honestly think they should be drug tested daily and if they don't have high levels of PEDs in their system they need fined and possibly suspended if it happens more than once. With the money they make they should be giving the fans their real best. OK most probably already are but lets get it out in the open. Under those oversized uniforms most look like action heroes.

Everything is not even, though. Not close to even.

And the question is basically: do you punish the players with unfairly inflated numbers, or do you punish everyone who got their numbers fairly?

Again, I put more blame with the owners, but the players knew they were abusing the game.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I think he started in 93 or 94, when he started having injury problems. But whatever.

My point is the same: his career numbers are hugely inflated. Rose, Mays and Mantle's are not.

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His girlfriend who trashed him in Sports Illustrated or wherever said it was a reaction to Sosa and McGwire.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Steroids developed to the point MLB stepped in and said this nonsense is banned. A whole group of players said f you to established rules. They have been kept out of the Hall for that reason. I haven’t lost sleep over it.

And many who probably also used are in. What of that?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His girlfriend who trashed him in Sports Illustrated or wherever said it was a reaction to Sosa and McGwire.

There is truth to that. Players had been using steroids to recover from injuries for several years. Canseco and a very few others had been overdoing it, but after the McGwire-Sosa spectacle, I think Bonds decided to take it to another level.

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[Beercan collector]

Always thought it was 1990 ,
His first four years 48, 59, 58, 58 rbis (in 580 at bats)
Then bam 1990 - 114 rbis
260 hitter that can’t break 60 RBIs is now the MVP
1989 ops .777
1990 ops .970
I can understand improvement but four perfectly mediocre years and then your an mvp

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

There is truth to that. Players had been using steroids to recover from injuries for several years. Canseco and a very few others had been overdoing it, but after the McGwire-Sosa spectacle, I think Bonds decided to take it to another level.

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Suppose he used them previously specifically to recover from an injury. How is that different from Koufax getting his elbow shot up every time he pitched?

[samosa4u]

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With all due respect facts are not part of this thread.

I've noticed facts are distinctly unwelcome.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Judge is 32. That's not a realistic comparison. He isn't going to get to 11K at bats when at age 32 he doesn't even have 4K. So how does this mean anything?

Of course he won't get to 11K ABs. My comparison makes sense because if he had a level playing field to compare, where both of them had the same ABs, then Judge would beat Pujols numbers in all the categories shown except hits. But Judge would still be a 3,000 hit club member and only be 150 short of Pujols. How else can you compare them unless they both had the same ABs? It's apples to oranges otherwise.


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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose he used them previously specifically to recover from an injury. How is that different from Koufax getting his elbow shot up every time he pitched?

That's a lot more nuanced, isn't it. Even in Koufax's day, doctors had concerns about cortisone causing further damage to the joints. It wasn't illegal, but maybe it was unethical. You can make similar points about steroids, there are adverse affects from long term use, which is why they are restricted to prescription use.

Steroids turned out to be much more useful than cortisone, however, and should have been regulated by Selig early on. Instead, he implicitly condoned them, which allowed baseball home run records to become a farce.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Cortisone is a steroid, no?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose he used them previously specifically to recover from an injury. How is that different from Koufax getting his elbow shot up every time he pitched?

If you use something that isn’t banned, hard to say you’re doing something wrong. This seems fairly cut and dry. Bonds and others knew what they were doing was wrong. That some have slipped through doesn’t mean they should get in. That’s letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Good is trying to keep known violators out. That’s what the actual voters seem to be doing.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Ha exactly. Let’s pretend we didn’t see Bonds’ head nearly double in size.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Of course he won't get to 11K ABs. My comparison makes sense because if he had a level playing field to compare, where both of them had the same ABs, then Judge would beat Pujols numbers in all the categories shown except hits. But Judge would still be a 3,000 hit club member and only be 150 short of Pujols. How else can you compare them unless they both had the same ABs? It's apples to oranges otherwise.


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I don't follow at all. So it's just irrelevant that Judge didn't start until age 25 and has spent lots of time on the DL? We just assume that away in order to compare him? I see no logic in this whatsoever?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

If you use something that isn’t banned, hard to say you’re doing something wrong. This seems fairly cut and dry. Bonds and others knew what they were doing was wrong. That some have slipped through doesn’t mean they should get in. That’s letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Good is trying to keep known violators out. That’s what the actual voters seem to be doing.

Except that it results in a totally skewed Hall.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Ha exactly. Let’s pretend we didn’t see Bonds’ head nearly double in size.

So did his hat size actually change or is this just a cool sounding myth. Some Peds will 100% bloat your face up as many make you retain water. So your head will look bigger when it really isn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Olympians get stripped of their medals for doping. Why hasn't Bonds been stripped of his MVPs and home run records?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Olympians get stripped of their medals for doping. Why hasn't Bonds been stripped of his MVPs and home run records?

Now you’re talking. Agreed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Now you’re talking. Agreed.

Seriously. Why hasn't it happened? Rose was banned for betting on his team, but Bonds and many others (supposedly) completely compromised the integrity of the game but hasn't been?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So did his hat size actually change or is this just a cool sounding myth. Some Peds will 100% bloat your face up as many make you retain water. So your head will look bigger when it really isn't.

He went from an 8 to a size 10. I am surprised you didn't know that. HGH makes your head grow.

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[Carter08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So did his hat size actually change or is this just a cool sounding myth. Some Peds will 100% bloat your face up as many make you retain water. So your head will look bigger when it really isn't.

No idea about what his hat size did but we all saw his body and head grow to a pretty absurd degree. It was part of the steroid era zeitgeist. SNL did skits about it. It wasn’t debatable or even a secret that he was juicing.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Seriously. Why hasn't it happened? Rose was banned for betting on his team, but Bonds and many others (supposedly) completely compromised the integrity of the game but hasn't been?

If you’re saying you think he should be stripped of records I’m agreeing with you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

If you’re saying you think he should be stripped of records I’m agreeing with you.

No I am just curious at the apparent double standard or at least inconsistency.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Except that it results in a totally skewed Hall.

Yep, it's a big mess. We know that guys like Sosa and Palmeiro were major abusers. But we have a little bit of doubt about Piazza and Ortiz. And Pujols is probably OK, but are we really sure?

But hey. Your brain may be spinning, but Selig and Reinsdorf got another $500 million in their pockets, so it's all worth it.

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[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No I am just curious at the apparent double standard or at least inconsistency.

I would guess that MLB would consider it not in its financial interest and/or too messy to deal with. The Hall voters are doing a bit of rogue justice in its place. No complaints here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Yep, it's a big mess. We know that guys like Sosa and Palmeiro were major abusers. But we have a little bit of doubt about Piazza and Ortiz. And Pujols is probably OK, but are we really sure?

But hey. Your brain may be spinning, but Selig and Reinsdorf got another $500 million in their pockets, so it's all worth it.

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A lot of line drawing problems. Gaylord Perry probably cheated every time he took the mound. God knows how many guys used corked bats. Does it enhance performance to know what pitch is coming because your teammates are stealing signs?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

He went from an 8 to a size 10. I am surprised you didn't know that. HGH makes your head grow.

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LOL, 8 to 10. I was actually surprised at how small many MLB players heads are. I noticed it when looking at game worn hats. I wear a tight 7 5/8 when I have no hair so it is hard to find a gamer that I can wear.

HGH is one of the few things I never took.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A lot of line drawing problems. Gaylord Perry probably cheated every time he took the mound. God knows how many guys used corked bats. Does it enhance performance to know what pitch is coming because your teammates are stealing signs?

I get your frustration but it sounds like you are saying it's too hard to figure things out, so let's just ignore it all? Or maybe, let's pretend it's all the same?



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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, 8 to 10. I was actually surprised at how small many MLB players heads are. I noticed it when looking at game worn hats. I wear a tight 7 5/8 when I have no hair so it is hard to find a gamer that I can wear.



HGH is one of the few things I never took.

Yeah, nobody was selling it in the dorms back then.

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[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A lot of line drawing problems. Gaylord Perry probably cheated every time he took the mound. God knows how many guys used corked bats. Does it enhance performance to know what pitch is coming because your teammates are stealing signs?

There are almost always line drawing problems but sometimes people are clearly on the wrong side of the line. Diaz was thrown out tonight for a foreign substance on his glove and he will be suspended. If he otherwise goes on to have a Hall of fame career do I think tonight should keep him out? No, although if he repeatedly gets caught I would listen to arguments. The steroid era guys at issue are not a close call. There was a major point of emphasis and rules put in place and these guys knowingly violated them and took steps to try to cover it up. Then there were lies to Congress that just added to the black mark. Bonds and Clemens were/are two of the best players to have ever played the game. Yet they played in and era that put an emphasis on no cheating via steroids and they said nope, f you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

I get your frustration but it sounds like you are saying it's too hard to figure things out, so let's just ignore it all? Or maybe, let's pretend it's all the same?



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I'm not sure. But a lot of injustice arises when you apply the laws unequally. Do we really think Papi didn't use, for example?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not sure. But a lot of injustice arises when you apply the laws unequally. Do we really think Papi didn't use, for example?

That's why we leave things to sportswriters, since they are the most logical and consistent thinkers.

By the way, I think Ortiz likely abused steroids, as I said earlier. But it's ok that Papi and Pudge slipped in. Some people get in that don't really deserve to, that's the Hall. On the other hand, it's an abomination that Selig was voted in.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

That's why we leave things to sportswriters, since they are the most logical and consistent thinkers.

By the way, I think Ortiz likely abused steroids, as I said earlier. But it's ok that Papi and Pudge slipped in. Some people get in that don't really deserve to, that's the Hall. On the other hand, it's an abomination that Selig was voted in.

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But it's worse than not deserving. Bonds will spend the rest of his life hated and ostracized by baseball, and he won't get in. Ortiz probably did the same shit he did, and maybe even benefited from it more (early Papi was not exactly on a path to greatness), and he will spend the rest of his life idolized and beloved, and of course he's in. Makes part of me want to say eff it, let's just let em all in and move on.