Poll - Greatest Living Player

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

He was a huge leader on the Cardinals , won a couple World Series .
You might want to look him up .
It’s Albert Pujols I think you might be confusing him with someone else

Judge’s best season and possibly his two best season are better than Pujol’s best and possibly second best. Koufax supporters use that type of argument so Judge supporters can too methinks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's nothing not to like about Judge but given his age I don't see him ending up in the all time great discussion. He doesn't even have 1000 hits at age 32. Still, some mega seasons to be sure.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Judge’s best season and possibly his two best season are better than Pujol’s best and possibly second best. Koufax supporters use that type of argument so Judge supporters can too methinks.

Part of the Koufax mystique is the "might have been" let's imagine a healthy 32 year old Koufax in 1968. Gibson was actually a year older than Koufax which seems weird. Think about picking up a 1975 Topps Sandy Koufax card. It almost gives me goosebumps.

When a guy has 5 seasons all among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher and then after arguably his greatest season has to retire at age 30 when many pitchers are peaking when the perfect combination of physical ability and veteran knowledge often mesh it's hard not to play the what if game. If his physical problems had caused a mediocre final season I think it would drastically alter the perception.

EDIT: I voted for Bench

[G1911]

Judge is about as valid a choice as Koufax. Absolutely ridiculous of course, but not any more still than Koufax. There are multiple living pitchers who were more than twice as valuable as Koufax and also did not use steroids. Maybe there should be a separate poll for favorite player, as that is not the same thing as greatest as many seem to insist upon.


Ryan was not amazing on any given night. He lost almost as much as he won, and posted an ERA 12% over the league average. This is lower than Gary Nolan. Over 300 pitchers in MLB history did a better job of not giving up runs (a pitchers primary job) relative to time and place. Ryan is a highlight reel with some huge strengths (longevity, strikeouts) and some huge weaknesses (walks, walks, walks). It doesn't matter if you strike out half the hitters when you walk in tons of runs. 350 K's is nice, 200 BB's undoes that value.


I would probably pick Berra as the all-time catcher, but Bench has a good argument for it. Schmidt seems pretty clearly the best 3B all time. Bonds is the best LF, Williams for those who pretend the steroid era did not exist. I take Wagner but A-Rod has a claim (or to 3B). I don't think any other living player has a real claim to being the all-time best at their position in a starting 9. Pedro has a case for greatest peak value pitcher ever, but not greatest pitcher.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

When a guy has 5 seasons all among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher

What were those five seasons from Koufax? I'll give you three but five "among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher"? 1962, he was 14-7 with a 2.54 ERA. That's been done roughly 80 million times in the history of baseball. Roughly 1964, you've got a better case but it wasn't a full season.

Koufax was league average outside of Chavez Ravine for his career.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Tabe

What were those five seasons from Koufax? I'll give you three but five "among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher"? 1962, he was 14-7 with a 2.54 ERA. That's been done roughly 80 million times in the history of baseball. Roughly 1964, you've got a better case but it wasn't a full season.

Koufax was league average outside of Chavez Ravine for his career.

His 2.54 ERA that year led the NL. He led all of MLB that year in hits per nine innings and Ks per nine innings. How many times has all that been done in a single year — which was by far the worst of his miraculous five year run?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Tabe

What were those five seasons from Koufax? I'll give you three but five "among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher"? 1962, he was 14-7 with a 2.54 ERA. That's been done roughly 80 million times in the history of baseball. Roughly 1964, you've got a better case but it wasn't a full season.

Koufax was league average outside of Chavez Ravine for his career.

Better at home, no doubt, as is almost every Dodger who pitched in Chavez Ravine, but he was NOT league average away.

Career away numbers: 3.04 ERA .652 winning percentage (Pitching largely for a team that couldn't hit it's way out of a paper bag) 1.167 WHIP, over a strikeout per inning and remember those totals are "poisoned" by his lackluster years. In that 5 year stretch they're pretty damn dominant.

[perezfan]

My biggest take-away from that poll is that Johnny Bench is REALLY underrated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fewer%20starts.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by perezfan

My biggest take-away from that poll is that Johnny Bench is REALLY underrated.

Always thought he was a tad overrated. Yogi is criminally underrated and my man Gary Carter could stand to be rated a bit higher generally when it comes to catchers.

[whiteymet]

There is only ONE player on this list that I believe the vast majority of baseball people would agree was the best EVER at his position.

Ricky is not the best outfielder ever, Jeter is not the best shortstop ever Koufax is not the best pitcher ever, etc.

Only Mike Schmidt is almost universally thought of as the greatest third baseman of all time.

That has to count for something when there are only 9 or 11 ( Relief pitcher and DH) greatest of all time by position. And Schmitty is the only one still breathing.

Bench is a close second but check out Yogi's records/stats/awards/rings!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Always thought he was a tad overrated. Yogi is criminally underrated and my man Gary Carter could stand to be rated a bit higher generally when it comes to catchers.

Catcher WAR
Bench 75.1 (1st)
Berra 59.5 (6th)
Carter is 2nd in this metric

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Better at home, no doubt, as is almost every Dodger who pitched in Chavez Ravine, but he was NOT league average away.

Career away numbers: 3.04 ERA .652 winning percentage (Pitching largely for a team that couldn't hit it's way out of a paper bag) 1.167 WHIP, over a strikeout per inning and remember those totals are "poisoned" by his lackluster years. In that 5 year stretch they're pretty damn dominant.

He had a career 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium, which is what I said, NOT "on the road". League Average is perhaps overstating it a bit but "very normal" certainly isn't.

And, no, a 2.54 ERA is not an all-time elite season. Period.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He had a career 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium, which is what I said, NOT "on the road". League Average is perhaps overstating it a bit but "very normal" certainly isn't.

And, no, a 2.54 ERA is not an all-time elite season. Period.

Yes his career home ERA at the Coliseum wasn't great, not sure about his numbers at Ebbets. But EVERYONE'S numbers were awful at the Coliseum.

People also seem to lose track of the fact that Koufax put it all together as a starter around 23 years old and became elite at 24. Perfectly normal ages for a pitcher to "get there" Do we really penalize him for the Dodgers not being able to send him to the minors because of the bonus baby rules?

If he had been able to develop normally maybe his greatness comes out even earlier, who knows. At the very least he doesn't have those first 4 or 5 years weighing down his career numbers because they're in the minors.

Hell there are a number of elite pitchers who don't even start getting their first cups of coffee until about the time he started to put it all together. I just don't see the sense in "punishing" him for career totals that are deflated by those years that should've been spent in the minors.

Also, those years that everyone loves to hate were actually right about league average, not some dumpster fire. So you get a guy who was average from age 19 to age 23-24. I did the work in another thread somewhere but there are tons of HOF pitchers who weren't very good until that 23 -24 year old range, and they NEVER had a 6 year stretch like Koufax's peak. IF you're going to argue against Koufax the better argument is him being done at 30, rather than criticism of his learning years that should've been spent in the minors.


And again I didn't vote for him as the greatest living player.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yes his career home ERA at the Coliseum wasn't great, not sure about his numbers at Ebbets. But EVERYONE'S numbers were awful at the Coliseum.

People also seem to lose track of the fact that Koufax put it all together as a starter around 23 years old and became elite at 24. Perfectly normal ages for a pitcher to "get there" Do we really penalize him for the Dodgers not being able to send him to the minors because of the bonus baby rules?

If he had been able to develop normally maybe his greatness comes out even earlier, who knows. At the very least he doesn't have those first 4 or 5 years weighing down his career numbers because they're in the minors.

Hell there are a number of elite pitchers who don't even start getting their first cups of coffee until about the time he started to put it all together. I just don't see the sense in "punishing" him for career totals that are deflated by those years that should've been spent in the minors.

Also, those years that everyone loves to hate were actually right about league average, not some dumpster fire. So you get a guy who was average from age 19 to age 23-24. I did the work in another thread somewhere but there are tons of HOF pitchers who weren't very good until that 23 -24 year old range, and they NEVER had a 6 year stretch like Koufax's peak. IF you're going to argue against Koufax the better argument is him being done at 30, rather than criticism of his learning years that should've been spent in the minors.


And again I didn't vote for him as the greatest living player.

+1

All good points regarding the bonus baby rules forcing him to pitch in the Majors well before he was developed, and how he actually developed in a normal timeline.

And I also agree he isn't the best living player.

He may not even be the best living left handed pitcher. That may be Randy Johnson--a guy that didn't get going until he was 29, but didn't slow down until his early 40s, while having the highest ERA+ 6x, winning 5 Cy Youngs, leading the League in strikeouts 9x, and winning 3 games in a World Series vs. the Yankees on his way to a WS MVP.

Of course, if Koufax had stayed healthy, he might actually be the best living player.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People still relate to baseball players as people generally of normal size and build so when someone develops well beyond that, it doesn't sit well. Nobody expects that of football players who at many positions are of supernatural size and strength.

I remember when Sosa got in trouble for having a corked bat that he used for batting practice...to which he stated that he was just doing that for the fans.

Clearly, he did not understand what you do Peter. One of the strongest draws, IMO, of Baseball, is that any 'average joe' can relate...even dream that he could be THAT guy.

And Baseball is ONLY so relatable on the most level playing field possible.

Originally Posted by perezfan

My biggest take-away from that poll is that Johnny Bench is REALLY underrated.

Totally agree!

He and Schmidt, IMO, are GOATS at their particular position...and so is Rickey...as a leadoff batter.


.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yes his career home ERA at the Coliseum wasn't great, not sure about his numbers at Ebbets. But EVERYONE'S numbers were awful at the Coliseum.

People also seem to lose track of the fact that Koufax put it all together as a starter around 23 years old and became elite at 24. Perfectly normal ages for a pitcher to "get there" Do we really penalize him for the Dodgers not being able to send him to the minors because of the bonus baby rules?

If he had been able to develop normally maybe his greatness comes out even earlier, who knows. At the very least he doesn't have those first 4 or 5 years weighing down his career numbers because they're in the minors.

Hell there are a number of elite pitchers who don't even start getting their first cups of coffee until about the time he started to put it all together. I just don't see the sense in "punishing" him for career totals that are deflated by those years that should've been spent in the minors.

Also, those years that everyone loves to hate were actually right about league average, not some dumpster fire. So you get a guy who was average from age 19 to age 23-24. I did the work in another thread somewhere but there are tons of HOF pitchers who weren't very good until that 23 -24 year old range, and they NEVER had a 6 year stretch like Koufax's peak. IF you're going to argue against Koufax the better argument is him being done at 30, rather than criticism of his learning years that should've been spent in the minors.


And again I didn't vote for him as the greatest living player.

All of that is completely legitimate but Koufax still played those years so they still count for/against him.

Did he get good at 24 because he figured it out? Or because they raised the mound, increased the size of the strike zone, added two awful teams via expansion, and moved into Dodger Stadium?