Greatest Living Player...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

You know who we all forgot and who had an ever better single season as a pitcher than Martinez?



In 1972: 12.1 WAR, 27 wins, 1.97 ERA, 41 games started and 30 complete games, 8 shutouts, 310 strikeouts. For a 6th place team that only won 59 games.

Peak WAR on Martinez was 11.7. He appeared in 31 games (29 started) in 2000, completed 7 (4 shutouts).

We are just never again going to see workhorse numbers like the 1960s-1970s pitchers, except maybe from a knuckleball pitcher. That cuts both ways in the argument. Is Pedro better because he worked 25% less than Carlton, or is Carlton better because he sustained his excellence with that workload? Same issue with Koufax-Johnson. Discuss.

Personally, I lean to the importance of workload and my interest is more historical than modern. But in context, Pedro dominated to a level Carlton never came close to, which is the argument for Pedro. If the focus is on workload, we must conclude every one of the X best pitching seasons are 19th century.

In 2000, Pedro's 11.7 WAR, is less than Carlton's WAR of 12.1, but within the .5 margin of error WAR advertises. 2nd in the league was 6.2 WAR. His ERA was less than half the 2nd best pitcher in the league.

In 1972, Carlton posted a 1.97. 2nd place was Nolan at 1.99, there were five pitchers other than Carlton sub 2.50. 2nd in WAR was 7.1.

Pedro is not "better because he worked 25% less than Carlton", nobody would ever make such an absurd argument. Both were easily the best pitcher in the league those years, but Pedro's season was contextually better because he annihilated the league.

[packs]

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. If you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. It means the greatest player that all other players should show deference to in recognition of their abilities and career. I really don't see an argument for anyone showing deference to Bonds. If his stats indicate he's better than Mays, why wasn't it argued he was better than Mays while Mays was still living?

I guess what I'm saying is, if you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

I don't know that I would consider Rickey Henderson to be a 5-tool player if you are using the idea of 5-tools as being hit for average, hit for power, running, fielding and throwing. Rickey clearly had running covered, but he only won a single gold glove, and I don't remember anything being written about his throwing arm being anything special. He was also a career .279 hitter with 297 home runs. While Rickey was clearly a great player, I don't think 5-tool player really describes him.

[G1911]

If Rickey is a 5 tool player, so is Bonds.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

If Rickey is a 5 tool player, so is Bonds.

Agreed. I'm not sure Bonds had the arm to really be considered a 5-tool player, but he makes it for the other 4 tools (even before PEDs are factored in).

[packs]

Rickey won a Gold Glove, he won 3 silver sluggers for his position, hit 81 career home runs from the lead off spot, has an OBP over 400 and was still playing games in center at 43 years old.

Five tool doesn't necessarily mean you are a perennial gold glove winner or Vlad Guerrero. It means you're doing everything well.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Rickey won a Gold Glove, he won 3 silver sluggers for his position, hit 81 career home runs from the lead off spot, has an OBP over 400 and was still playing games in center at 43 years old.

Five tool doesn't necessarily mean you are a perennial gold glove winner or Vlad Guerrero. It means you're doing everything well.

He played in 4 games and 27 innings in center for Boston in 2002 at the age of 43. I'm not sure that really supports your argument.

He played most of his games during his career in left field which is usually where you put someone who doesn't have the greatest arm so I think that is still the weakest tool of his and doesn't really make him a 5-tool player. I don't ever remember anyone talking about anyone being afraid to run on him because of his great throwing ability.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Tarik Skubal is currently 8 - 3 for a Tigers team with 34 total wins.

But my pick for greatest living player is Rickey Henderson. When people talked about Willie being the greatest living player, it was the combination of his 5 tools that gave him that title.

I don't think there's another living player with the five-tool talent of Rickey Henderson. Every generation there's another Mantle, Griffey, Trout, etc. but there will never be another Rickey Henderson. Lots of speed in the world but you still need four other elite skills to get to where he was.

I also disagree with Bonds. Greatest living player doesn't mean best stats or most awards. If you reduce greatest living player to stats and math, then how did Willie Mays end up as greatest living player as long as Bonds is alive? I think it's because those aren't actually the terms people look at the greatest living player in.

Which tool was Griffey lacking?

[packs]

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Staying on the field.

I love Griffey more than anyone else in the discussion but he had such an uneven career and he never won. I also don't think there's a lot separating Griffey from Trout, who is also living.

But I don't think we'll ever see another Rickey.

Rickey Henderson was basically league average for the last decade of his career, 104 OPS+.

[packs]

I understand that. But what do you consider to be great? I consider it to be a player you're unlikely to ever see again. I love Griffey, but Trout is still active. I don't really see a lot separating them or feel like I'll never see another Griffey again.

I don't know how people define their feelings for Mays, but a lot of people describe him as a once in a life player. That is my opinion on Rickey. I really don't think anyone will ever be a better lead off hitter than he was and I highly doubt his accomplishments will be surpassed, and that's because he was impossibly good at what he did.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I understand that. But what do you consider to be great? I consider it to be a player you're unlikely to ever see again. I love Griffey, but Trout is still active. I don't really see a lot separating them or feel like I'll never see another Griffey again.

I don't know how people define their feelings for Mays, but a lot of people describe him as a once in a life player. That is my opinion on Rickey. I really don't think anyone will ever be a better lead off hitter than he was and I highly doubt his accomplishments will be surpassed, and that's because he was impossibly good at what he did.

It’s not what I consider, it’s your given reasons. You said it was because he was five tool and then had to walk back the importance of five tools because Rickey requires a rather broad definition of them to qualify.

You said he’s over Griffey because Griffey was not as good the second half of his career, even though he was more effective than Rickey’s last decade.


If the judgement requires having to find reasons after the first few fail and ends on a subjective feeling, it’s just not a very compelling argument.