Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Lol. Ya, I'm calling bullshit on the 11 second load time.

It took about 15 seconds for the database to load so that I could search it. However, the message saying that the database was loading and please be patient with the spinning icon was still present even after I was able to search in it.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If by "tried to have a conversation with you" you mean you dodged all my questions like you did again here, then yes, you "tried to have a conversation". So I guess I'll extend you the same courtesy.

I see you're back to making shit up though. At no point did I ever try to get you banned. But just run with that since facts don't matter to you.

I have never made anything up. You can go back and read all the posts. Let’s try this again by starting with this 1952 Jackie Robinson. Can we both agree that these are the same cards? What is the sticker design that you would like to add to the card?



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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jayshum

It took about 15 seconds for the database to load so that I could search it. However, the message saying that the database was loading and please be patient with the spinning icon was still present even after I was able to search in it.

Again, I'm calling bullshit. It does not load in 15 seconds. It takes minutes to load. The webpage itself loads, and a few dozen rows of cards might load in 15 seconds, but the full excel file is not loading in 15 seconds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let me guess. Only water was used, and there was nothing to disclose.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I have never made anything up. You can go back and read all the posts. Let’s try this again by starting with this 1952 Jackie Robinson. Can we both agree that these are the same cards? What is the sticker design that you would like to add to the card?

Now that's interesting. Why would someone crack out a PSA 3 only to resubmit and get a 3 again? And for the record, it wasn't me.

Also, I'm curious how you think the card got dirty again and how they restored the color? Do you think it was recolored too perhaps? How did the borders get dirty again while retaining the same cert number? This hobby sure is a mystery sometimes!

Also, NOT FOR SALE!

...

[Snowman]

It also looks like it was even cleaned while still inside the original PSA 3 cert's slab (see first image comparison below). This is getting interesting now!

...

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Now that's interesting. Why would someone crack out a PSA 3 only to resubmit and get a 3 again? And for the record, it wasn't me.

Also, I'm curious how you think the card got dirty again and how they restored the color? Do you think it was recolored too perhaps? How did the borders get dirty again while retaining the same cert number? This hobby sure is a mystery sometimes!

Also, NOT FOR SALE!

...

It is currently for sale on eBay. I noticed the price went up from $30k to $100k. https://www.ebay.com/itm/26631786764...mis&media=COPY

Is that the added value from being added to the altered card database? Imagine how much more it will go up once we agree on a sticker for it!


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[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not following. So Travis bought it already cleaned?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

It is currently for sale on eBay. I noticed the price went up from $30k to $100k. https://www.ebay.com/itm/26631786764...mis&media=COPY

Is that the added value from being added to the altered card database? Imagine how much more it will go up once we agree on a sticker for it!

It's almost as if someone here has an agenda to make the card appear as though it has been chemically altered/bleached when it in fact has not. Look at the difference between your two images and the original listing image and how it actually looks currently. This card has not been altered. And not all cards listed on ebay are actually for sale. A lot of people list cards on ebay for Show & Tell and to bring buyers into their store or to start conversations.

Let's review how you arrived at these images and this very clear personal attack with your posting though (while simultaneously remaining anonymous by not posting your name along with your attacks - a clear forum violation that you are well aware of). First, you scowered through some ebay listings and found the card in its current holder looking like the image on the right below. Then you searched for prior sales of the card and found the image on the left below from a PWCC sale (again, not mine, as I did not buy it in that holder, but that's irrelevant). But using the original image from it's previous holder and the image from its current holder (both shown below) didn't fit your narrative. So you attempted to dig up worse images of the card that could paint it in a way that would better fit your agenda. So you dug up the PSA images (which you surely know are often completely blown out and almost never represent what any card actually looks like) and used those images as your before vs after comparisons to make the card appear as though it has been chemically bleached out (which it has not).

Again, who is the one being dishonest here? If you wonder why people don't care about your database it's because you put cards like this in it which have not been altered.

...

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not following. So Travis bought it already cleaned?

Yes, that is correct. And I love it. It's not for sale and probably never will be until I perish.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Again, who is the one being dishonest here?

...

The fraud guy who just lied yet again and said it was not for sale while he actively has it up for sale vs. the guy who has a track record of trying to actually do something to help the dirtiness of this hobby. Man, this is a tough one to decide

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, that is correct. And I love it. It's not for sale and probably never will be until I perish.

I will never cease to be amazed at just how brazenly and obviously you lie lol. It is absolutely hilarious.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It almost makes me wonder if a less biased comparison might be the second image below?

The images I used all come from PSA. I doubt PSA is image bias.

Let’s stay focused on getting a sticker for this card.


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[Snowman]

Again, for comparison so you can see them all side-by-side, the bottom row shows how this card actually looks/looked in both holders. The top row shows the cherry-picked/manipulated images used by the anonymous miss Tiffany to attack a forum member and make it appear as though the card had been chemically bleached out when it in fact has not been.

...

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

The images I used all come from PSA. I doubt PSA is image bias.

Another lie. You know damn well that PSA's images are garbage. Admit it, you first saw the images from the bottom row of my comparison collage above (the images which accurately represent the card), but those weren't good enough for you, so you went to the PSA website to see if you could dig up some worse images that might better fit your narrative.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Let’s stay focused on getting a sticker for this card.

I've asked you 4 times if I have your permission to put stickers on cards with your logo. You dodged the question all 4 times. This is the last time I'll ask. Do I have your permission to put stickers on cards using your logo?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Another lie. You know damn well that PSA's images are garbage. Admit it, you first saw the images from the bottom row of my comparison collage above (the images which accurately represent the card), but those weren't good enough for you, so you went to the PSA website to see if you could dig up some worse images that might better fit your narrative.

It would help your case and credibility if you would stop blatantly lying about things that do not even matter, like having the card for sale. When you just openly lie in ways that are really, really easy to prove in 10 seconds about things that don't even matter, it is impossible to seem honest or take any accusations of dishonesty you make about anyone else seriously. You are the poster child for dishonesty and lying when you keep provably lying all the damn time lol.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

It would help your case and credibility if you would stop blatantly lying about things that do not even matter, like having the card for sale. When you just openly lie in ways that are really, really easy to prove in 10 seconds about things that don't even matter, it is impossible to seem honest or take any accusations of dishonesty you make about anyone else seriously. You are the poster child for dishonesty and lying when you keep provably lying all the damn time lol.

The card is listed on ebay for many multiples of what it is worth. Nobody is going to pay the listed price for it, nor the previously listed price, nor anything remotely near it. I have zero intentions of selling it. It is there for show & tell. It might be my favorite card in my entire collection. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. PSA 3s go for between $6k to $10k. This one was listed for $30k which I changed to $100k in case there was any confusion about it actually being "for sale". It's listed on ebay, yet it is not "for sale". If you can't understand that concept, then I don't know what to tell you.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I've asked you 4 times if I have your permission to put stickers on cards with your logo. You dodged the question all 4 times. This is the last time I'll ask. Do I have your permission to put stickers on cards using your logo?

Let’s start with the Jackie listed on eBay. Put your mock design sticker on it. If I approve, then I will give you permission to use it on your other cards. I won’t even charge you a royalty.


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[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, that is correct. And I love it. It's not for sale and probably never will be until I perish.

If you cannot understand the titanic gulf between this statement and actively having it for sale, I don't know what to tell you except you should not be calling anyone else dishonest.

You have an audience here who mostly loves fraudsters (check out how many of them get pissed off the moment anyone criticizes convicted fraudsters who run auction houses!). If you'd just stop blatantly lying all the time you'd get so much support for your schtick. In this one single thread you have accused people of using false names for literally using their actual name and claimed you would never put a card up for sale that is actively and publicly listed for sale. Just stop lying, it is not hard lol

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Another lie. You know damn well that PSA's images are garbage. Admit it, you first saw the images from the bottom row of my comparison collage above (the images which accurately represent the card), but those weren't good enough for you, so you went to the PSA website to see if you could dig up some worse images that might better fit your narrative.

I’m not sure what you are even talking about. You seem to be flailing all over the place. When would I have seen your image collage?? At least we agree that they are in fact the same card. If you want, then I would be happy to discuss the differences I pointed out in the images with you. In not a single post did I mention anything about bleaching. Who is attacking you or manipulating images?? I never said this was your card.

Even if we use your images from your collage, you can clearly see the stain on the top right border is no longer present on the cert 76513639. Where did the stain go??? The stain has been removed. Which is why this card was added to the altered card database.


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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let me guess. Only water was used, and there was nothing to disclose.

This is a classic example of what I keep talking about over and over and over. Someone on a web forum calls out a card and posts inaccurate/manipulated images that do not actually represent what the card looks like or looked like, or in this case both. Then they post these doctored before vs after images to make it appear as though something has been done to a card which in fact has not been done to it (in this case the implication is clearly that some sort of chemical bleaching/ateration has occurred). And you bought it hook line and sinker, because hey, look at those images! Yet, in hand, the card itself clearly has off-white dirty borders and has not been bleached at all, as also evidenced by the more accurate scans posted above. The very scans that Tiffany originally found of the card yet intentionally ignored because they didn't fit her agenda.

[Exhibitman]

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I’m not sure what you are even talking about. You seem to be flailing all over the place. When would I have seen your image collage?? At least we agree that they are in fact the same card. If you want, then I would be happy to discuss the differences I pointed out in the images with you. In not a single post did I mention anything about bleaching. Who is attacking you or manipulating images?? I never said this was your card.

Even if we use your images from your collage, you can clearly see the stain on the top right border is no longer present on the cert 76513639. Where did the stain go??? The stain has been removed. Which is why this card was added to the altered card database.

Here you go again with your disingenuous deceptive bullshit. Just admit that you intentionally chose the washed-out-looking PSA scan and the dirty looking prior PSA scan instead of the PWCC scan because they were a better fit for your agenda and it make it appear as though the card has been chemically bleached when it in fact has not.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Here you go again with your disingenuous deceptive bullshit. Just admit that you intentionally chose the washed-out-looking PSA scan and the dirty looking prior PSA scan instead of the PWCC scan because they were a better fit for your agenda and it make it appear as though the card has been chemically bleached when it in fact has not.

When asked by Peter_Spaeth "So Travis bought it already cleaned?" you replied, "Yes, that is correct." So you acknowledge that the card has been cleaned. Why are you continuing with the false narrative that the images are manipulated?? If you have a problem with PSA images, then take it up with them. Again your own images show the stain had been removed from the card.

Now, please get back on the topic of labeling cards that are on the altered card database. Let's see your mock up!

[Carter08]

Just trying to catch up on this one and apologize for not going through everything. Is the dispute over whether the Jackie currently has that discoloration in the upper right or whether its removal constitutes alteration or something else?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Now, please get back on the topic of labeling cards that are on the altered card database. Let's see your mock up!

Excellent! Now that you've accurately represented the card, perhaps we should discuss what is and is not an alteration since you claim to be maintaining a database of "altered" cards. As we all know, soaking a vintage card in water and letting it dry is not an alteration. So why is this card in your database again?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Excellent! Now that you've accurately represented the card, perhaps we should discuss what is and is not an alteration since you claim to be maintaining a database of "altered" cards. As we all know, soaking a vintage card in water and letting it dry is not an alteration. So why is this card in your database again?

No not everyone just those that do it claim that.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Just trying to catch up on this one and apologize for not going through everything. Is the dispute over whether the Jackie currently has that discoloration in the upper right or whether its removal constitutes alteration or something else?

Tiffany wanted to "out" me for bleaching/altering a card that hasn't even been bleached and that wasn't even cleaned by me. She will try to disingenuously claim that she never said it was bleached, but we all know why she chose those scans instead of the ones that show what the card actually looks like. Just another classic hit job by the hobby princess.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No not everyone just those that do it claim that.

And those that grade them and whose opinions actually matter. Soaking a vintage card in water has always been an acceptable practice by every grading company whether you like it or not.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Just trying to catch up on this one and apologize for not going through everything. Is the dispute over whether the Jackie currently has that discoloration in the upper right or whether its removal constitutes alteration or something else?

Snowman said he wanted to make stickers to be placed on cards that are on the altered card database. I provided him a card that is on the altered card database that he can make his mock up sticker for.

Snowman disagreed with the images I posted (which came from PSA), so he then posted his own images. I think he is trying to show that the card has not been improved by removing the stain, but even his own images show that the stain is gone. Hopefully, his own images will be enough for him to finally stop going off on a tangent and refocus back to creating a sticker.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Excellent! Now that you've accurately represented the card, perhaps we should discuss what is and is not an alteration since you claim to be maintaining a database of "altered" cards. As we all know, soaking a vintage card in water and letting it dry is not an alteration. So why is this card in your database again?

We do not know what the card was soaked in. You said that you did not clean the card. Based on the before and after pictures the card does show evidence of being altered. I hope that the card was not soaked in tap water, even Kurt has said to never do that. Based on PSAs most recent comments even soaking a card in water is not acceptable. Therefore, the card was added to the altered card database.

The altered card database is not the judge, jury or executioner as to what is or isn't an altered card. That role belongs to the person that wants to purchase the card. The altered card database is an educational tool that provide collectors with information about cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

We do not know what the card was soaked in.

False

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

You said that you did not clean the card.

True

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Based on the before and after pictures the card does show evidence of being altered.

False

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I hope that the card was not soaked in tap water

It was not

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

even Kurt has said to never do that.

Since when did you start listening to Kurt's opinions?

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Based on PSAs most recent comments even soaking a card in water is not acceptable.

False

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Therefore, the card was added to the altered card database.

True

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

The altered card database is not the judge, jury or executioner as to what is or isn't an altered card.

Really? You don't say. And here I was thinking it mattered. Boy do I feel silly.

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

That role belongs to the person that wants to purchase the card. The altered card database is an educational tool that provide collectors with information about cards.

It sounds awesome! I'll let you know what I find in there just as soon as it finishes loading (it's currently at 4 min 27 seconds and counting...)

[TiffanyCards]

We do not know what the card was soaked in.

Originally Posted by Snowman

False

Response: Only the person that cleaned the card knows what it was soaked in. Please share with us who cleaned the card, so that they can confirm what they soaked it in.




Based on the before and after pictures the card does show evidence of being altered.

Originally Posted by Snowman

False

Response: Before and After pics show a stain removed. Are you disputing your own images?




Based on PSAs most recent comments even soaking a card in water is not acceptable.

Originally Posted by Snowman

False

"We are fine with blowing on it or using a dab of water or using microfiber to clean it," said Ryan Hoge, president of Collectors, parent company of PSA. "But when you are doing much more, we are not on board." https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ing-rejections




Good news, we are making progress. However, we are all still waiting for your sticker.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Again, I'm calling bullshit. It does not load in 15 seconds. It takes minutes to load. The webpage itself loads, and a few dozen rows of cards might load in 15 seconds, but the full excel file is not loading in 15 seconds.

You can call it whatever you want, but after about 15 seconds, there were rows from the database displayed. I then did Ctrl-F and searched for Williams and it showed a count of 97 and took me to the first example which was Billy Williams near the bottom of the list.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by jayshum

You can call it whatever you want, but after about 15 seconds, there were rows from the database displayed. I then did Ctrl-F and searched for Williams and it showed a count of 97 and took me to the first example which was Billy Williams near the bottom of the list.

Some people will never figure it out.


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[steve B]

I doubt a simple soaking in water would remove a water stain like that.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by steve B

I doubt a simple soaking in water would remove a water stain like that.

Yes, it 100% can. For people trying to avoid buying cleaned cards, I highly recommend watching online content to see how it’s done or better yet, simply buy a few old vintage common cards to try it yourself. That’s how I learned to help avoid buying cleaned cards at shows & in auctions. I taught myself how to spot cleaned cards (not perfect but helps). Dr Beckett talked many times on his podcast about high grade vintage cards looking unnatural. That is why I think over 50% of mid to high end vintage cards have been cleaned at some point. I remember dealers taking about soaking cards during the 1980s as a kid. That’s why I think many of us have unknowingly cleaned cards in our vintage collections whether we are aware of not. It’s up to you to believe it or remain ignorant

E.g. I work in IT Security & Integration Program Mgt. How do you think we learn to continuously protect our systems? Like the FBI, other companies, etc… we hire, attend lectures , & study former hackers to teach ourselves. We just don’t guess or reuse online posts. Like most things in life, need to study the opposition to learn.

[TiffanyCards]

Snowman can you provide the cert # or the additional images of the 1953 Jackie Robinson when it was in a PSA 2.5 holder? Thanks

[Carter08]

Maybe it’s because I can’t afford them but whenever I see a clean card with sharp corners pre-1960 I tend to think it’s been worked on (or found in a Black Swamp).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

Yes, it 100% can. For people trying to avoid buying cleaned cards, I highly recommend watching online content to see how it’s done or better yet, simply buy a few old vintage common cards to try it yourself. That’s how I learned to help avoid buying cleaned cards at shows & in auctions. I taught myself how to help spot cleaned cards (not perfect but helps). Dr Beckett talked many times on his podcast about the vast majority of vintage cards looking unnatural. That is why I think over 50% of mid to high end vintage cards have been cleaned at some point. I remember dealers taking about soaking cards during the 1980s as a kid. That’s why many of us have cleaned cards in our vintage collections whether we are aware of not. It’s up to you to believe it or remain ignorant

E.g. I work in IT Security & Integration Program Mgt. How do you think we learn to continuously protect our systems? Like the FBI, other companies, etc… we hire, attend lectures , & study former hackers to teach ourselves. We just don’t guess or reuse online posts. Like most things in life, need to study the opposition to learn.

I agree on cleaned cards, and regular stains. It happens all the time, and sometimes isn't a bad thing.

That sort of water stain though usually has had the paper damp enough that the sizing has slightly broken down letting the fibers expand. It's possible soaking and pressing would fix that issue, but the discoloration is also usually very deep into the cardboard. I have doubts that just water would fix that sort of stain.

I may do some experimenting, and see if I can cause then fix that sort of stain.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Snowman can you provide the cert # or the additional images of the 1953 Jackie Robinson when it was in a PSA 2.5 holder? Thanks

What could you possibly need that for? To try to "out" who I bought it from? LOL. GFY

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve b

i doubt a simple soaking in water would remove a water stain like that.

lol

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

Yes, it 100% can. For people trying to avoid buying cleaned cards, I highly recommend watching online content to see how it’s done or better yet, simply buy a few old vintage common cards to try it yourself. That’s how I learned to help avoid buying cleaned cards at shows & in auctions. I taught myself how to help spot cleaned cards (not perfect but helps). Dr Beckett talked many times on his podcast about the vast majority of vintage cards looking unnatural. That is why I think over 50% of mid to high end vintage cards have been cleaned at some point. I remember dealers taking about soaking cards during the 1980s as a kid. That’s why many of us have cleaned cards in our vintage collections whether we are aware of not. It’s up to you to believe it or remain ignorant

E.g. I work in IT Security & Integration Program Mgt. How do you think we learn to continuously protect our systems? Like the FBI, other companies, etc… we hire, attend lectures , & study former hackers to teach ourselves. We just don’t guess or reuse online posts. Like most things in life, need to study the opposition to learn.

Exactly this! The number of people just talking straight out of their ass on this subject is hilarious. Just toss a 10¢ common into a bucket of water and let it dry ffs. It's not rocket science and you might learn something.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by steve B

I agree on cleaned cards, and regular stains. It happens all the time, and sometimes isn't a bad thing.

That sort of water stain though usually has had the paper damp enough that the sizing has slightly broken down letting the fibers expand. It's possible soaking and pressing would fix that issue, but the discoloration is also usually very deep into the cardboard. I have doubts that just water would fix that sort of stain.

I may do some experimenting, and see if I can cause then fix that sort of stain.

You have no idea what you're talking about. But yes, go run some experiments. That's a good idea.

The funny thing is you wouldn't even need to soak a card in water to remove a stain like that.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

What could you possibly need that for? To try to "out" who I bought it from? LOL. GFY

To add it to the database to further document the history of the card. It’s almost like a provenance that is found with all art restoration. You also claim that the card was soaked in water and not other chemicals. Since you didn’t clean the card it would be helpful to hear from the person that did. For someone that says there is nothing wrong with it, then why are you trying to hide it??

Still waiting for that sticker.


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[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not following. So Travis bought it already cleaned?

From what I can tell on this thread is that the card was bought by someone as a PSA 3. They cracked and cleaned it to a PSA 2.5. Travis cracked it, did nothing to it and it came back a PSA 3 again.

Travis could shed more light on it, but he doesn’t seem willing to. I think he is just too busy working on the mock up sticker to place on his slab. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like he can complete the sticker until after he finishes loading the altered card database on his computer… It going on 48 hours and it’s still loading…


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[Republicaninmass]

Guessing it has some wrinkles that wouldn't come out/or be seen in the scan.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Guessing it has some wrinkles that wouldn't come out/or be seen in the scan.

It never had any creases or wrinkles on it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Travis could shed more light on it, but he doesn’t seem willing to. I think he is just too busy working on the mock up sticker to place on his slab. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like he can complete the sticker until after he finishes loading the altered card database on his computer… It going on 48 hours and it’s still loading…

The reason I don't give you more information is because I think you're a s***bag of a human who runs around trying to get anyone canceled who doesn't see things the same way as you. I also think you're dishonest with your postings. You intentionally select images to create a false narrative and even doctor images to make cards appear as though something has been done to them which hasn't actually been done. I also think you're disingenuous in all of your conversations, pretending as though you didn't say things which you've clearly implied, etc. All the while, trying to hide behind your anonymous keyboard. I think you're about as close to scum of the earth as they come.