Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[packs]

If the NHL allowed these players to be drafted, how can it be said that the NHL banned them from playing? Isn't that like saying MLB banned Cuban players? If you could get to the country, MLB was more than happy to let you play. I don't see what one thing has to do with the other.

[Yoda]

I would only wonder about the stats coming out of the old Negro League. Who were the scorekeepers? Who checked the numbers for accuracy? We think we can agree that MLB stats pre-integration were pretty pure.

[BioCRN]

The purity test for stats on a part of the board dedicated to pre-war is a bit "okay, then."

Players defining their own strike zone...foul balls aren't strikes...7 balls for a walk...legal doctoring of the ball...erratically less games played depending on the era...umpires set up in weird positions on the field...the mound size (or lack of one in early cases)...lack of consistency in the actual baseball construction...extremely oddly dimensions on baseball parks...

I got more.

Let's just put an asterisk on everything and call it a day.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by packs

If the NHL allowed these players to be drafted, how can it be said that the NHL banned them from playing? Isn't that like saying MLB banned Cuban players? If you could get to the country, MLB was more than happy to let you play. I don't see what one thing has to do with the other.

They weren't banned by the NHL, they were banned by the Soviet government. But what's the difference who banned them? Would it make any difference to you if the reason black players had been banned from MLB was because the Federal government had passed a law prohibiting black players rather than MLB banning them? Of course not! Either way, it was wrong!

The bottom line is Soviet hockey players were not allowed to play in the NHL by no choice of their own, and those players and their leagues were just as good as NHL players. Therefore, all the players who played in the Soviet leagues should have their stats included with their NHL stats. It's the same logic they're using for baseball. It's just that the Social Justice warriors haven't gotten around to disenfranchised ex-Soviet hockey players yet. Alas, perhaps one day.....

[packs]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

They weren't banned by the NHL, they were banned by the Soviet government. But what's the difference who banned them? Would it make any difference to you if the reason black players had been banned from MLB was because the Federal government had passed a law prohibiting black players rather than MLB banning them? Of course not! Either way, it was wrong!

The bottom line is Soviet hockey players were not allowed to play in the NHL by no choice of their own, and those players and their leagues were just as good as NHL players. Therefore, all the players who played in the Soviet leagues should have their stats included with their NHL stats. It's the same logic they're using for baseball. It's just that the Social Justice warriors haven't gotten around to disenfranchised ex-Soviet hockey players yet. Alas, perhaps one day.....

Something can be wrong and an entirely separate issue from another wrong. I don't see any commonality between a player being denied the ability to leave their home country and a player being denied the ability to play in a league because of their skin color.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What if Josh Gibson's batting average was substantially lower in the 50 percent or maybe it's higher of games for which there are no stats? Leaving aside all the equality arguments, the incompleteness of the stats makes comparisons dubious.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if Josh Gibson's batting average was substantially lower in the 50 percent or maybe it's higher of games for which there are no stats? Leaving aside all the equality arguments, the incompleteness of the stats makes comparisons dubious.

I think I read that they believe about 75% of the NL games are accounted for in the stats that are now available, but your point is still valid. Especially for individual season records, another few games of 0-4 could easily drop batting average or slugging percentage below the values previously considered to be the records.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if Josh Gibson's batting average was substantially lower in the 50 percent or maybe it's higher of games for which there are no stats? Leaving aside all the equality arguments, the incompleteness of the stats makes comparisons dubious.

From a statistical perspective, it is highly unlikely that his batting average in the missing games is significantly different than that of the games we do have records for. My stats is a bit rusty since I haven’t used it since studying for my Lean Six Sigma Green Belt last year, but if we assume we only have details on 50% of his at bats, a sample size of 2526 yields a margin of error of 2.57% at a 99% confidence level. To put it in more colloquial terms, there is a 99% chance Gibson’s real batting average is within plus or minus .026 of the known average of .373

I am undoubtedly oversimplifying the math a bit here, so it is a darn shame we don’t have a credentialed data scientist around here to help.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

From a statistical perspective, it is highly unlikely that his batting average in the missing games is significantly different than that of the games we do have records for. My stats is a bit rusty since I haven’t used it since studying for my Lean Six Sigma Green Belt last year, but if we assume we only have details on 50% of his at bats, a sample size of 2526 yields a margin of error of 2.57% at a 99% confidence level. To put it in more colloquial terms, there is a 99% chance Gibson’s real batting average is within plus or minus .026 of the known average of .373

I am undoubtedly oversimplifying the math a bit here, so it is a darn shame we don’t have a credentialed data scientist around here to help.

Interesting statistical analysis. Maybe Snowman can verify?

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by packs

Something can be wrong and an entirely separate issue from another wrong. I don't see any commonality between a player being denied the ability to leave their home country and a player being denied the ability to play in a league because of their skin color.

Debating with you is like debating my wife! You switch gears to avoid the main point of the argument. I give up, dear. You were right all along. Now what's for dinner?

[packs]

I don't think I'm switching gears. You are, in my opinion. First you said the NHL banned Russian players and then you said they didn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Debating with you is like debating my wife! You switch gears to avoid the main point of the argument. I give up, dear. You were right all along. Now what's for dinner?

How many times, when I make a point, her response is, what about the fact that .....?