Take Note, Ty Cobb Fans

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you guys make of early baseball stats then? Cap Anson is credited with 3,435 hits in the MLB. But more than 400 of those hits came in the National Association. While playing against National Association teams, Anson would have been competing against teams that didn't even finish the season in some cases.

Are those credible stats?

The National Association was the #1 highest quality of play professional league in the world at the time. I can't see why this wouldn't be the majors at the time.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

The National Association was the #1 highest quality of play professional league in the world at the time. I can't see why this wouldn't be the majors at the time.

Is it normal for major league baseball teams to shut down mid-season? I make the point only to demonstrate that if your opinion is that Negro League players weren't facing top competition, there are plenty of precedents in what is considered MLB for dubious competition as well.

Really I just think if you're going to suggest Negro League players paled in comparison to MLB players, there's really no basis for that opinion and you can't hold that opinion without recognizing that any player in MLB before 1947 could have potentially been out of baseball if black players were able to compete for their spot.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Is it normal for major league baseball teams to shut down mid-season? I make the point only to demonstrate that if your opinion is that Negro League players weren't facing top competition, there are plenty of precedents in what is considered MLB for dubious competition as well.

Really I just think if you're going to suggest Negro League players paled in comparison to MLB players, there's really no basis for that opinion and you can't hold that opinion without recognizing that any player in MLB before 1947 could have potentially been out of baseball if black players were able to compete for their spot.

I think you need to go back and read what I actually wrote.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think you need to go back and read what I actually wrote.

I wasn't talking to you. I was making a general point. Then I responded to a post of mine you quoted.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I wasn't talking to you. I was making a general point. Then I responded to a post of mine you quoted.

Duplicate post.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I wasn't talking to you. I was making a general point. Then I responded to a post of mine you quoted.

You quoted me and used “you”. That would seem like you are talking to me, but alright.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

You quoted me and used “you”. That would seem like you are talking to me, but alright.

I quoted your post about the NA in response to what I wrote.

I was using the royal you to discuss general opinions made in the thread.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by packs

Really I just think if you're going to suggest Negro League players paled in comparison to MLB players, there's really no basis for that opinion and you can't hold that opinion without recognizing that any player in MLB before 1947 could have potentially been out of baseball if black players were able to compete for their spot.

+1

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

The National Association was the #1 highest quality of play professional league in the world at the time. I can't see why this wouldn't be the majors at the time.

This is true. However, MLB and Baseball Reference also recognize the Union Association from 1884 and have been since 1969 when they also started recognizing the American Association, 1882–91; the Players’ League, 1890; and the Federal League, 1914–15
https://www.mlb.com/press-release/pr...14%E2%80%9315.

I think the recognition of some of these other Leagues (especially the Union Association) as Major Leagues is one reason why some people think the recognition of the best Negro Leagues is overdue.

[gonefishin]

I really enjoy all the discussions and points of view. Pictures do enhance the discussion, so here is my Negro League autographed bat, and yes, some Hall of Fame players on it including the "Say Hey Kid" as he noted. We should all be celebrating as this news about recognizing the Negro Leagues simply enhances and expands the hobby base. Yes, many are disappointed for a thousand different reasons and just as many are happy. I do think this - the accomplishments of any player in the Negro Leagues does not diminish the accomplishments of others.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

This is true. However, MLB and Baseball Reference also recognize the Union Association from 1884 and have been since 1969 when they also started recognizing the American Association, 1882–91; the Players’ League, 1890; and the Federal League, 1914–15
https://www.mlb.com/press-release/pr...14%E2%80%9315.

I think the recognition of some of these other Leagues (especially the Union Association) as Major Leagues is one reason why some people think the recognition of the best Negro Leagues is overdue.

I think people tend to group all of these into a bucket, and it's not proper. The National Association was, I think, quite deserving as a major league. It is the first real major league. The Players' League, though it lasted one year, also brought in a ton of the top talent and seems to me to have been and thought of as what constitutes a major league. The others I am either less informed on or doubtful of. The NA, the Players League, and even the Federal League certainly thought of themselves as major leagues. I think if we want to revise, taking a closer look at three of these and reconsidering might be a good place to start.

They were high end, played similar schedules, and don't have the historical contradiction. The Negro Leagues were not leagues even attempting to compete as major leagues - they existed entirely because the Major Leagues had a terrible policy. Their entire existence was predicated on the fact that they were not major leagues and nobody really thought that they were; their quintessential purpose was that they were not major leagues - which is why they fell apart so fast when the real majors finally adopted a meritocracy. Many Negro League players were obviously very high end, I have no doubt Josh Gibson would have been truly great in the real majors too and it is a historical tragedy he was not allowed too. That tragedy shouldn't be glossed over by rewriting it to pretend the negro leagues were the major leagues too.

I think it rather obvious he would not likely have posted these 'records' though. Time and place is everything, we know Radbourn couldn't win 60 today and Bonds wouldn't bash 73 in 1901, but pretending 39 games of Gibson is a record season seems to be a whole new issue of revisionism rather than the ebb and flow of history.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think people tend to group all of these into a bucket, and it's not proper. The National Association was, I think, quite deserving as a major league. It is the first real major league. The Players' League, though it lasted one year, also brought in a ton of the top talent and seems to me to have been and thought of as what constitutes a major league. The others I am either less informed on or doubtful of. The NA, the Players League, and even the Federal League certainly thought of themselves as major leagues. I think if we want to revise, taking a closer look at three of these and reconsidering might be a good place to start.

They were high end, played similar schedules, and don't have the historical contradiction. The Negro Leagues were not leagues even attempting to compete as major leagues - they existed entirely because the Major Leagues had a terrible policy. Their entire existence was predicated on the fact that they were not major leagues and nobody really thought that they were; their quintessential purpose was that they were not major leagues - which is why they fell apart so fast when the real majors finally adopted a meritocracy. Many Negro League players were obviously very high end, I have no doubt Josh Gibson would have been truly great in the real majors too and it is a historical tragedy he was not allowed too. That tragedy shouldn't be glossed over by rewriting it to pretend the negro leagues were the major leagues too.

I think it rather obvious he would not likely have posted these 'records' though. Time and place is everything, we know Radbourn couldn't win 60 today and Bonds wouldn't bash 73 in 1901, but pretending 39 games of Gibson is a record season seems to be a whole new issue of revisionism rather than the ebb and flow of history.

But Negro Leaguers were trying to compete against Major Leaguers and sought out the competition with their white counterparts. And when they were granted such competition, they performed very well. Josh Gibson desperately wanted to show that he could dominate the white MLB and was crushed that he never got the chance to do so. I don't think it is accurate to say that they "weren't even attempting to compete as major leagues". They did everything in their power to do so.

In any event, the addition of the Negro Leagues to the MLB statistical record was announced long ago, has already happened, and Net54 doesn't have any say in it. You can continue griping about it, but its done. I for one am glad I can see stats of the Negro Leaguers in a convenient way, even if they are incomplete.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

But Negro Leaguers were trying to compete against Major Leaguers and sought out the competition with their white counterparts. And when they were granted such competition, they performed very well. Josh Gibson desperately wanted to show that he could dominate the white MLB and was crushed that he never got the chance to do so. I don't think it is accurate to say that they "weren't even attempting to compete as major leagues". They did everything in their power to do so.

In any event, the addition of the Negro Leagues to the MLB statistical record was announced long ago, has already happened, and Net54 doesn't have any say in it. You can continue griping about it, but its done. I for one am glad I can see stats of the Negro Leaguers in a convenient way, even if they are incomplete.

No one is disputing that many of them were great players, or that it has happened. If you want to object to discussion about things... I mean, this is a forum

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

No one is disputing that many of them were great players, or that it has happened. If you want to object to discussion about things... I mean, this is a forum

I am objecting to you saying the Negro Leagues "weren't even attempting to compete as major leagues." This is a forum that is acting like this is the first time they heard about this and many seem outraged.

[Carter08]

I’m slightly in favor of the decision but understand the other side of it. To me, Bonds rendered all time records a bit less interesting and meaningful anyway.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am objecting to you saying the Negro Leagues "weren't even attempting to compete as major leagues." This is a forum that is acting like this is the first time they heard about this and many seem outraged.

I think I missed the outrage part? Seems like people gave reasonable ideas for and against. I already wrote this was done in 2020.

Here is you objecting to discussion:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

In any event, the addition of the Negro Leagues to the MLB statistical record was announced long ago, has already happened, and Net54 doesn't have any say in it. You can continue griping about it, but it's done. I for one am glad I can see stats of the Negro Leaguers in a convenient way, even if they are incomplete.

That a thing happened is not in dispute. People will express opinions for or against the topic at hand on a forum. We don't have to agree with everything that happens outside of our power.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

But Negro Leaguers were trying to compete against Major Leaguers and sought out the competition with their white counterparts. And when they were granted such competition, they performed very well. Josh Gibson desperately wanted to show that he could dominate the white MLB and was crushed that he never got the chance to do so.

I have a very hard time seeing as how the Negro Leagues were thought of or acted as major leagues in that time. You seem to be choosing to recast what I actually said as a criticism that they could not compete with whites. I have very specifically stated the opposite multiple times. I have said nothing but praise for Gibson.


Here's what I actually said.

Originally Posted by G1911

They were high end, played similar schedules, and don't have the historical contradiction. The Negro Leagues were not leagues even attempting to compete as major leagues - they existed entirely because the Major Leagues had a terrible policy. Their entire existence was predicated on the fact that they were not major leagues and nobody really thought that they were; their quintessential purpose was that they were not major leagues - which is why they fell apart so fast when the real majors finally adopted a meritocracy. .

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think I missed the outrage part? Seems like people gave reasonable ideas for and against. I already wrote this was done in 2020.

Look no further than:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Woke, revisionist bullshit.

But history evolves. We know that Doubleday did not, in fact, invent baseball.

Yes, but Ty Cobb played Major League baseball. Josh Gibson did not. So there's that.

Do I resepct Gibson's ability? You'd better believe it! But he didn't play against MLB players in official games. Sorry. Negro League baseball is NOT Major League baseball and never will be to me.

If all of these updates truly make any sense, then I demand that Sadaharu Oh be considered the all-time MLB HR leader. Japanese players couldn't help that they played on another continent! It wasn't their fault! It would be wrong to exclude anybody for any reason!

I can't wait for the updated versions of all other aspects of history!