Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

Casey2296 · #1 05-07-2024, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

What do they own?

They own the cards they won in the auction and do not need to spend any money until they receive their cards, how is that not a collecting win?

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-07-2024, 10:49 PM

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

Casey2296 · #3 05-07-2024, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

Which gives the high bidder all the power, No?

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-07-2024, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Which gives the high bidder all the power, No?

It's a contingent contractual right, but realistically the contingency is unlikely to materialize.

Casey2296 · #5 05-07-2024, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a contingent contractual right, but realistically the contingency is unlikely to materialize.

Maybe, is there a chance these significant cards don't show up and end up in some Russian Oligarchs collection? Of course, but if they do show up the ownership provenance is ironclad.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 05-07-2024, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Maybe, is there a chance these significant cards don't show up and end up in some Russian Oligarchs collection? Of course, but if they do show up the ownership provenance is ironclad.

If the thief is sophisticated, or passes the cards along to someone sophisticated, they'll show up in different slabs (or raw), perhaps slightly damaged to avoid detection, etc. etc. I would not say ironclad.

Casey2296 · #7 05-07-2024, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the thief is sophisticated, or passes the cards along to someone sophisticated, they'll show up in different slabs (or raw), perhaps slightly damaged to avoid detection, etc. etc. I would not say ironclad.

Daryls Mello Mint Cobb is unmistakable.

Mark17 · #8 05-07-2024, 11:03 PM

So far this discussion has mainly been focused on establishing value, for insurance purposes and to make everybody whole (after it's determined where liability lies.)

Here's a hypothetical: Since the cards were mailed from out of state, and it's a large sum, suppose the FBI is, indeed, running the investigation. Maybe it was THEIR idea to run the auction as though nothing had happened.

If it wasn't public knowledge that cards were stolen, and more importantly, exactly which ones, maybe it was an FBI-initiated "sting" operation to try to identify unusual bidding behavior. For example, some person, or group, bidding up only the stolen cards, to inflate their perceived value. Or, hoping some bidder might somehow reveal knowledge unknown to the public, like asking unusual questions, etc.

IF this is generally what happened, then I would have to change my mind and say that ML did the right thing in working with law enforcement to solve the crime.

Another package was tampered with, but not taken. I wonder if fingerprints were obtained that could be cross-checked against employees or others with access to the package. Maybe this is the reason for their stated "optimism."

So... If it was done to establish value, I think that was wrong. If it was a key part of the investigation, under direction of law enforcement, I would unquestionably change my mind completely.

ThomasL · #9 05-07-2024, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So far this discussion has mainly been focused on establishing value, for insurance purposes and to make everybody whole (after it's determined where liability lies.)

Here's a hypothetical: Since the cards were mailed from out of state, and it's a large sum, suppose the FBI is, indeed, running the investigation. Maybe it was THEIR idea to run the auction as though nothing had happened.

If it wasn't public knowledge that cards were stolen, and more importantly, exactly which ones, maybe it was an FBI-initiated "sting" operation to try to identify unusual bidding behavior. For example, some person, or group, bidding up only the stolen cards, to inflate their perceived value. Or, hoping some bidder might somehow reveal knowledge unknown to the public, like asking unusual questions, etc.

IF this is generally what happened, then I would have to change my mind and say that ML did the right thing in working with law enforcement to solve the crime.

Another package was tampered with, but not taken. I wonder if fingerprints were obtained that could be cross-checked against employees or others with access to the package. Maybe this is the reason for their stated "optimism."

So... If it was done to establish value, I think that was wrong. If it was a key part of the investigation, under direction of law enforcement, I would unquestionably change my mind completely.

+1

Snowman · #10 05-07-2024, 11:46 PM

If the insurance company does pull through and magically pays out on this rather dicey claim, then they would become the owners of the cards should they ever surface.

Seven · #11 05-08-2024, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

If the insurance company does pull through and magically pays out on this rather dicey claim, then they would become the owners of the cards should they ever surface.

This is perhaps one of the most interesting things to me, but again this is assuming a lot. I have no dog in this race, I'm a lower level collector that makes less in a year than some of these cards go for in an auction. All that being said the only way I would think the Insurance company would pay out, correct me if I'm wrong, is if there was next to zero chance of the cards being recovered. If they suddenly are what exactly happens to them? I doubt the insurance company wants a bunch of old pre-war cards. Do they auction them off?

bnorth · #12 05-08-2024, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

This is perhaps one of the most interesting things to me, but again this is assuming a lot. I have no dog in this race, I'm a lower level collector that makes less in a year than some of these cards go for in an auction. All that being said the only way I would think the Insurance company would pay out, correct me if I'm wrong, is if there was next to zero chance of the cards being recovered. If they suddenly are what exactly happens to them? I doubt the insurance company wants a bunch of old pre-war cards. Do they auction them off?

Never with cards but with items in the 5 figure range the insurance company owned the items after they paid me off. Have no idea what they did with them afterwards.

Lorewalker · #13 05-08-2024, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

This is perhaps one of the most interesting things to me, but again this is assuming a lot. I have no dog in this race, I'm a lower level collector that makes less in a year than some of these cards go for in an auction. All that being said the only way I would think the Insurance company would pay out, correct me if I'm wrong, is if there was next to zero chance of the cards being recovered. If they suddenly are what exactly happens to them? I doubt the insurance company wants a bunch of old pre-war cards. Do they auction them off?

The likelihood of the recovery of the cards is not the criteria the carrier would use to base paying the claim or not, in this situation. They pay when there is a loss and at this point there is a loss but they only pay when the policyholder abides by the policy, which does not sound like that happened.

Snowman · #14 05-08-2024, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

This is perhaps one of the most interesting things to me, but again this is assuming a lot. I have no dog in this race, I'm a lower level collector that makes less in a year than some of these cards go for in an auction. All that being said the only way I would think the Insurance company would pay out, correct me if I'm wrong, is if there was next to zero chance of the cards being recovered. If they suddenly are what exactly happens to them? I doubt the insurance company wants a bunch of old pre-war cards. Do they auction them off?

Yes, the insurance company would just turn around and auction them off again if they were to take ownership by paying out on a claim and then later recovering the assets.

But I'd wager good money that they won't be consigning them to Memory Lane lol

Aquarian Sports Cards · #15 05-08-2024, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think what they own is more in the nature of an option subject to a contingency, I don't think they own the cards, they haven't paid and indeed they are not obligated to pay under any circumstances.

Unless terms and conditions state otherwise ownership changes hands at the fall of the hammer (literal or virtual) NOT at the time of payment. So by law, the winning bidders could easily be considered the owners.

Auction law is weird, the situation is weirder, lawyers could get rich off of this kind of weirdness.

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