Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Ok Here is what I dont get...(but I guess lawyers advised them not to do this for some reason?)

They know about the theft before the auction starts correct?

Then why not cancel the auction until the items are recovered and then have the same auction at a later date?

Also until the cosigners are paid out I would not be signing anyone's praises either...they can say they will do a lot of things but until the money is in hand they haven't done anything.

If we are talking about hypotheticals...Image a cosigner who has to sell his loved collection to pay for medical treatments right now...but now their payout could possible take years of litigation...

Auction opened April 11. Isn't the theft after that?

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Auction opened April 11. Isn't the theft after that?

Maybe I misread the article then...that makes it a little less the obvious thing to do but still I think that would have been the best course of action.


Addendum:
Also...all the items already had a market value, and values for insurance purposes already I would assume (in case they would have been lost in the mail or a fire at the warehouse/auction house)...so logically running the auction to establish a value for insurance purposes is unnecessary ... isnt it?

IMO the best course of action would have been to close the auction once they knew of the theft, informed all cosigners of it asap and offer to return the items not stolen if they wanted them back at no cost or offer to hold them over for the next auction with zero fees taken in by ML for the consignment.
The cosigners who had items stolen would be in limbo, which they are anyway, but at least would be in the loop from the start that their items were stolen and could get updates on the case. ML could offer to pay the full market value up front or after a period of time if the cards are not recovered (giving the option to wait to see if the cards will be recovered)

If they werent recovered within the first 2 weeks I seriously doubt they will be recovered at all or at least any time soon...I hope I am wrong

Likely scenarios are these in no particular order:

1. Robber knew ahead of time what the package was and had already fenced the items before stealing them...thus the robber doesnt have them and they are absorbed into a shady collectors collection not to be seen until their death or some day long after the statute of limitations.

2. Robber quickly found out how impossible it would be for them to sell or get rid of the items bc they were easily identifiable...this leads to two options
2a. Robber sits on the items for a long time, possibility of them never resurfacing, or selling at an auction house10+ years down the road when people have forgotten about the theft (much like library collections have been stolen from and sold years later at some major auction houses) 2b. Robber trashes them to get rid of the evidence...destroyed never to be seen again and always a mystery what happened to them.

None the less...If they werent recovered quickly I seriously doubt they will be...if it was some idiot who did it they would have already showed up on ebay

[Peter_Spaeth]

Total speculation but I could see some employee opportunistically/impulsively taking the box, panicking once he realized the FBI was involved and this was a big deal, and destroying the evidence. Hard to see how this could have been an inside job especially given another box of catalogues from a different AH apparently was also tampered with.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Total speculation but I could see some employee opportunistically/impulsively taking the box, panicking once he realized the FBI was involved and this was a big deal, and destroying the evidence. Hard to see how this could have been an inside job especially given another box of catalogues from a different AH apparently was also tampered with.

On this line of thinking...since the auction ran that created a whole alternative line or lines of possibilities...as others pointed out pages back several items were bid way up from recent previous comps...yes I know that happens all the time but think of it this way as pointed out previously...what if those were the stolen cards...then the FBI has to investigate the bidders of those cards and the cosigners I would imagine wouldnt they? If they had nothing to do with this mess then that is wasted time and energy

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thomas Saunders

[ThomasL]

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

And the thieves...

[evergreen1988]

Maybe a different point of discussion, what does this event mean for the industry and other auction houses generally, or even the insurance companies? A $2mm loss/payout changes things.

1. Will the insurance provider survive the payout, assuming they make one? Will there be any changes to policies? Additional restrictions or requirements? Will rates go up?
   
2. Will auction houses change their liability limits to theft or other issues? If so, how does a consignor secure their interests when listing with an auction house? I've never consigned anything, but what are the current limits?
   
3. Will auction houses cut back on what they bring to shows? I've personally bid after seeing something in person at a show and its always been cool to see some rare stuff.
   
4. What impact will this have on ML? Even if they recover the cards today and every buyer follows through and receives their purchases by Friday, almost as if this never happened, will consignors be concerned with ML's stability or decision making? More competition in the auction space is probably good, so this can only be negative.
   
5. Will/should there be changes to security at shows, especially the smaller ones? Will other dealers be reluctant to bring their best material, especially if insurance policies change?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

...also what is the probability that the FBI is monitoring this thread as we speak...

approximately 100%
.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thank you! The only course of action!

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

On this line of thinking...since the auction ran that created a whole alternative line or lines of possibilities...as others pointed out pages back several items were bid way up from recent previous comps...yes I know that happens all the time but think of it this way as pointed out previously...what if those were the stolen cards...then the FBI has to investigate the bidders of those cards and the cosigners I would imagine wouldnt they? If they had nothing to do with this mess then that is wasted time and energy

Again the best course of action would have been to immediately cancel the auction and inform the parties involved.

Thomas Saunders

Following this reasoning wouldn’t the actual consigners benefit the most as their payouts from an insurance claim be based on the card(s) price run ups? Edit: intent is to illustrate following the OPs argument, this would be nonsensical and absurd.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Following this reasoning wouldn’t the actual consigners benefit the most as their payouts from an insurance claim be based on the card(s) price run ups?

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I honestly think bunswickreeves was making the point that it makes no sense for the auction company to participate in running things up because they wouldn't benefit. I don't think he was implying any wrongdoing, actually the contrary. Of course I've been wrong before.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

And you would've gotten away with it to, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dog!

[brad31]

What a crazy situation. My thoughts:

1) Somebody advised Memory Lane to complete the auction to establish value.
2) if consigners are paid the amount the items would have been sold for less agreed upon fees then they have handled a crappy situation as well as cold have been done.
3) if Memory Lane’s policy covers this loss then they were responsible in how they handled the cards - they did nothing with the cards that would prevent them from full compensation.
4) The winning bidders are getting hosed but this is unavoidable - there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

2 above is the biggest key - Memory Lane needs to make things right for the “owners” of the cards (consigners) at the time of the loss from theft. They can go after Best Western, insurance, etc. but their direct business hinges on safeguarding the items being auctioned. If Best Western is found liable (which I doubt) this is a small ancillary part of their business and will have little/no effect in them.

3 above is a moot point as long as Memory Lane does number 2.

The thief is the problem. Everyone else are victims - but the buck stops at Memory Lane to pay their consigners in a reasonable amount of time.

I think the cards are likely to be recovered because pretty much the only way for that not to happen at some point in the future is the perpetrator to dispose of them.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Ryan, I'm hoping for the best for you. You've handled this situation way better than I would have. Good luck to you brother.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Sad that the wild conjecture of some has pushed things this far.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Misinterpretation. It was nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship, clarifying my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.