Is it ethical to alter cards and sell them without disclosure?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Define altered please

Yeah, without this it isn't going to be very informative, I fear. The real issue is what people deem to be alteration. Someone like Travis could easily answer THIS question no, but that would be premised on his belief that certain things are not alteration.

[G1911]

We are assuming that words mean a thing and not the opposite of that thing, and in this case the generally understood meaning of the word as it has been consistently used in the relevant hobby over the last three decades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

We are assuming that words mean a thing and not the opposite of that thing, and in this case the generally understood meaning of the word as it has been consistently used in the relevant hobby over the last three decades.

Certain things have generally been deemed acceptable whether or not it's perfectly consistent. Soaking cards out of a scrapbook. Rubbing off a gum stain with a nylon. I don't think it's ever been black and white. As framed clearly 3 is my answer, but I am not sure the term is that clear.

[Lorewalker]

Going forward I might suggest polls be cleared by a lawyer...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Certain things have generally been deemed acceptable whether or not it's perfectly consistent. Soaking cards out of a scrapbook. Rubbing off a gum stain with a nylon. I don't think it's ever been black and white. As framed clearly 3 is my answer, but I am not sure the term is that clear.

Again, we can hem and haw over the edges or we can be reasonable. I get 100 characters in a poll as limited by the system software, and as can probably be told by the 2 typing issues had to cut them up and chop them down to get under the limit was is. Even if I wrote that 300 page treatise, there would be something absent we could then use to hem and haw and wring our hands some more.

All reasonable people are well aware that almost any other comparable issue of behavior or criminality can be answered in the common sense. I am positive that if we had had a dialogue for long enough you and I could find an examplar of something like "robbery" that we disagreed on if that case constituted. Nonetheless, we could surely both answer the very obvious general question right off the bat that we are against the practice of "robbery", as English speaking people who know what the word means.

[philliesfan]

I agree with all that said to specify what is considered altering.
Bob

[raulus]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

I agree with all that said to specify what is considered altering.
Bob

Since we're all speaking English, I guess this is what it means. Of course, it's unclear precisely how this gets applied in the world of soaking, bending back a corner, wiping off some gum, etc.

[campyfan39]

So by this definition if you crease a card you have altered it. If there are stains or things not on the original it has been altered. You

Originally Posted by raulus

Since we're all speaking English, I guess this is what it means. Of course, it's unclear precisely how this gets applied in the world of soaking, bending back a corner, wiping off some gum, etc.

[CardPadre]

Yeah, a lot of gray area of things that are pretty dissimilar when you just say altered.

How about one group that encompasses improving creases, wrinkles, dents, bumps.

One that encompasses "cleaning" (whatever that is)...would love to hear what that actually means if it's something beyond wiping a card down with something moist.

One that is trimming.

One that is adding color.

What other categories would there be?

Anyone who has ever soaked a card and later sold without disclosing should probably answer "yes" from the limited 3 choices above or be considered at least some degree of hypocrite.

[G1911]

I am positive there is reasonable disagreement on edge cases.

Surely, if we dove deep enough, we could find a case of "robbery" where two reasonable men disagreed on if that particular case did or did not constitute robbery. Nonetheless, as reasonable men, surely we could reasonably say whether we are for or against "robbery" as it is generally understood by English speaking people to mean and has consistently been used.

While polls have 100 character limitations, even if I wrote a 300 page treatise we could surely find an example not covered and then use that as the angle to hem and haw.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am positive there is reasonable disagreement on edge cases.

Surely, if we dove deep enough, we could find a case of "robbery" where two reasonable men disagreed on if that particular case did or did not constitute robbery. Nonetheless, as reasonable men, surely we could reasonably say whether we are for or against "robbery" as it is generally understood by English speaking people to mean and has consistently been used.

While polls have 100 character limitations, even if I wrote a 300 page treatise we could surely find an example not covered and then use that as the angle to hem and haw.

I don't think, given the range of things that are done to cards, it's as clear cut as "robbery" for example.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think, given the range of things that are done to cards, it's as clear cut as "robbery" for example.

What things done to a card that any significant part of the card-collecting population consider to be alterations are not, in fact, alterations and you should not disclose when selling a card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

What things done to a card that any significant part of the card-collecting population consider to be alterations are not, in fact, alterations and you should not disclose when selling a card?

Personally I am OK with the two things I mentioned, and beyond that I would object with varying degrees of outrage. But I think more than a small minority of people are probably OK with smoothing out a paper lift, or pressing a surface wrinkle, and like it or not there is greater tolerance than I have for cleaning. Whether or not people think of these things as not alterations at all, or as alterations but OK ones, is a matter of semantics. But all that said, I think the poll would mean more if you had defined the term, rather than having a poll where one's definition of the term at issue might determine the answer. Just my two cents.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Personally I am OK with the two things I mentioned, and beyond that I would object with varying degrees of outrage. But I think more than a small minority of people are probably OK with smoothing out a paper lift, or pressing a surface wrinkle, and like it or not there is greater tolerance than I have for cleaning. Whether or not people think of these things as not alterations at all, or as alterations but OK ones, is a matter of semantics. But all that said, I think the poll would mean more if you had defined the term, rather than having a poll where one's definition of the term at issue might determine the answer. Just my two cents.

Personally, I get the same information from tallying the people who claim ignorance and pretend they can't say if alterations should or should not be disclosed because of some X or Y edgecase, the logic of which would not be used for any other kind of fraud or crime.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Options 2 and 3 are likely to include false positives in terms of what you are trying to get at -- people who think cleaning is not an alteration, would not disclose it, but are going to say they think true alterations should be disclosed.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, without this it isn't going to be very informative, I fear. The real issue is what people deem to be alteration. Someone like Travis could easily answer THIS question no, but that would be premised on his belief that certain things are not alteration.

I think one is altering a card if they do anything to the card that changes its appearance with the intent of making it look better. It is clear some alterations are acceptable to most in the hobby and are considered innocent. Either way, if something was done, it should be mentioned. Let the buyer decide if they are ok with that. Some will and some won't.