Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

Encountered this line of thinking recently.

X sells Y raw card for cash and slabbed card. Y subs raw card and gets an A back. X then discloses they cleaned the card. X takes the card back and pays back Y fully vut cracked their to clean that one too. Y is still out cards they would've never given up if it had been disclosed. X will clean card and try and make more money still with both the first and traded card.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission (disclose the cleaning).

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I know which card/s you're referring to. I agree, the seller should not have sold it to the buyer without it having passed grading first, and after having some so, he shouldn't have done anything to the other cards until the buyer got it back from grading.

That said, the reason that particular card was rejected had nothing to do with it having been cleaned. It also later passed grading - and at a higher grade than he guaranteed to the buyer at that.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I know which card/s you're referring to. I agree, the seller should not have sold it to the buyer without it having passed grading first, and after having some so, he shouldn't have done anything to the other cards until the buyer got it back from grading.



That said, the reason that particular card was rejected had nothing to do with it having been cleaned. It also later passed grading - and at a higher grade than he guaranteed to the buyer at that.

🥱 funny the seller/fraudster said the same thing about why it didn't pass grading when both PSA and SGC didn't give it a number. Neither of you actually know.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

�� funny the seller/fraudster said the same thing about why it didn't pass grading when both PSA and SGC didn't give it a number. Neither of you actually know.

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You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen the card in person. Have you?

It passed grading at SGC the first time. The seller didn't like the grade, so they sent it to PSA. That's when PSA rejected it. They gave it an N5 designation ("altered stock"), not an N7 which would be for "evidence of cleaning". The reason it was rejected had nothing to do with him cleaning it. The flaw that they were looking at was already there when he bought it. The seller then asked me to examine the card for him because he couldn't find anything wrong with it. I looked at it and showed him what PSA was looking at and I advised him that it would likely pass grading at SGC, but that it wasn't a guarantee. It's a flaw that different graders disagree about how to grade. Based on my opinion, and the fact that SGC had previously graded it as numeric, he chose to sell it raw and guaranteed the buyer a particular grade with SGC. The buyer sent the card to SGC and they graded it as altered. I scolded the seller, who then owned up to his mistake and promptly refunded the buyer. I then learned that it was actually a partial trade deal and that he had cracked open one of the buyers cards already, before the deal was finalized, and I scolded him again. After refunding the buyer, he regraded it, and it passed grading again.

Calling the seller a "fraudster" is ridiculous. He made some stupid choices, then owned up to his mistakes and promptly refunded the buyer. That's not what fraudsters do.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Calling the seller a "fraudster" is ridiculous. He made some stupid choices, then owned up to his mistakes and promptly refunded the buyer. That's not what fraudsters do.

I beg to differ on this particular point. This is PRECISELY what smart fraudsters do. They appease those who call them out on their fraud so they can continue committing it on the masses who never call them on it/discover it.

[skelly423]

G1911 said it perfectly. It's all about money, and pretending it's anything else is obtuse. Sellers who alter cards (for the pedantic I use the term to include trimming, coloring, soaking or cleaning) NEVER disclose they've altered a card because they know it will crater the resale value. If it's really immaterial, it would be a matter-of-fact detail in the description.

You can rationalize it a hundred different ways, but until I meet a seller who actually discloses their alterations (still waiting), you can't convince me it's anything other than financially motivated deception.

Peter_Spaeth, it's getting awful crowded on this island. I'm starting to think we might be the ones on the mainland.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by skelly423

G1911 said it perfectly. It's all about money, and pretending it's anything else is obtuse. Sellers who alter cards (for the pedantic I use the term to include trimming, coloring, soaking or cleaning) NEVER disclose they've altered a card because they know it will crater the resale value. If it's really immaterial, it would be a matter-of-fact detail in the description.

You can rationalize it a hundred different ways, but until I meet a seller who actually discloses their alterations (still waiting), you can't convince me it's anything other than financially motivated deception.

Peter_Spaeth, it's getting awful crowded on this island. I'm starting to think we might be the ones on the mainland.

For some people, I have no doubt that it's all about money. But for others, it's definitely not. But even for those who are trying to profit from it, what difference does it make? Incentives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not what they're doing is OK. And like it or not, the grading companies all allow you to clean your cards. They always have, and always will. Again, trimming, recoloring, that's something else. But Kurt doesn't do that stuff.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

For some people, I have no doubt that it's all about money. But for others, it's definitely not. But even for those who are trying to profit from it, what difference does it make? Incentives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not what they're doing is OK. And like it or not, the grading companies all allow you to clean your cards. They always have, and always will. Again, trimming, recoloring, that's something else. But Kurt doesn't do that stuff.

There are many videos on Kurt’s YouTube channel where he uses his wizard water to not just “clean” but to also remove scratches, dents, and creases.


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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

There are many videos on Kurt’s YouTube channel where he uses his wizard water to not just “clean” but to also remove scratches, dents, and creases.


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And Kurt's videos are not continuous so who knows if he is doing other things when the camera is not taking the video. I am not saying he is but seems highly questionable the results he gets by spraying some unknown substance on a card, placing it under weight and having flaws vanish.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

There are many videos on Kurt’s YouTube channel where he uses his wizard water to not just “clean” but to also remove scratches, dents, and creases.


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It's all good!! But God forbid it gets disclosed.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It passed grading at SGC the first time. The seller didn't like the grade, so they sent it to PSA. That's when PSA rejected it. They gave it an N5 designation ("altered stock"), not an N7 which would be for "evidence of cleaning".

They gave it altered stock and your telling me cleaning had nothing to do with it

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

They gave it altered stock and your telling me cleaning had nothing to do with it

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Yes, that's precisely what I'm telling you. N7 grade is for cleaning. N5 is for altered stock. They're not the same thing. Maybe learn how to grade cards if you want to engage in a discussion about grading cards? Or don't. Up to you.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, that's precisely what I'm telling you. N7 grade is for cleaning. N5 is for altered stock. They're not the same thing. Maybe learn how to grade cards if you want to engage in a discussion about grading cards? Or don't. Up to you.

Isn't the N5 altered stock usually from obvious pressing?

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Isn't the N5 altered stock usually from obvious pressing?

Which is part of the cleaning process as well.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Isn't the N5 altered stock usually from obvious pressing?

The most common reason N5 is given us due to a card being kept in a screw down.