Walter Johnson Vs. Christy Mathewson

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Johnson was clocked at 91.36 mph by Remington Arms in 1917. This was measured at some distance from the actual release, but I haven't seen an account that gives the actual distance from release. If it was different from the point it is measured today, things would need to be scaled to make them align. While not radar, the arms world could and did measure pretty accurately the speeds of moving objects, which is one reason a whole lot of things changed in that world before modern testing methods became available.

It seems pretty clear that pitchers back then threw hard as well, not quite as hard as today, and likely less frequently as they had to hurl 350+ innings and surely conserved their arms unlike todays pitchers that go all out 100% of the time because there's 12 relievers to come in and they have little responsibility for any great length of time.

He was measured at 122 ft/sec, which is 83 mph. That measurement was taken 7 ft behind home plate. Adjusting for where pitches get recorded today, just a few feet from release, estimates put his velocity in the low 90s. Johnson likely topped out around 95mph.

[jingram058]

I have to respond. Think what you will of me, I don't care. It would seem that I am the only one in this thread who played real no-shit baseball at a competitive level. I don't know if you folks, who I very highly respect when it comes to all the nuances of baseball cards, realize what you're saying, but you don't know jack about the game itself. Yes, players at the MLB level are bigger, stronger, faster today. And they break down with incredible regularity, protecting their $$$. But. I've played the game. I know all about 85 to 90 mph fastballs. I could hit them pretty well, if I guessed right. I know that there is a WORLD of difference between 85 to 90 to 95 and 95 to 100. Above 95, you will hear the baseball, whizzing. You won't catch up to it, unless you're something special, even if you know it's coming. If you think Walter Johnson topped out at 95 mph, you're delusional. If that was the case, and if I could somehow go back in time, you'd be collecting MY t205 an t206 cards today! I don't give a flying f what idiotic facts you're reading. They're wrong. They called him "The Big Train" because his fastball, when he put on the gas, made noise. I'm done with listening to this goofy, armchair nonsense.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I have to respond. Think what you will of me, I don't care. It would seem that I am the only one in this thread who played real no-shit baseball at a competitive level. I don't know if you folks, who I very highly respect when it comes to all the nuances of baseball cards, realize what you're saying, but you don't know jack about the game itself. Yes, players at the MLB level are bigger, stronger, faster today. And they break down with incredible regularity, protecting their $$$. But. I've played the game. I know all about 85 to 90 mph fastballs. I could hit them pretty well, if I guessed right. I know that there is a WORLD of difference between 85 to 90 to 95 and 95 to 100. Above 95, you will hear the baseball, whizzing. You won't catch up to it, unless you're something special, even if you know it's coming. If you think Walter Johnson topped out at 95 mph, you're delusional. If that was the case, and if I could somehow go back in time, you'd be collecting MY t205 an t206 cards today! I don't give a flying f what idiotic facts you're reading. They're wrong. They called him "The Big Train" because his fastball, when he put on the gas, made noise. I'm done with listening to this goofy, armchair nonsense.

Appeals to authority and insulting everyone as idiots does not make a case, evidence does

[ksfarmboy]

Greatest player from Kansas.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Greatest player from Kansas.

Is that one of the ones sold by Doug Allen's wife on eBay?

[ksfarmboy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Is that one of the ones sold by Doug Allen's wife on eBay?

Yes it was Hank.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Yes it was Hank.

I got one, too. Pure serendipity except for the fact that I was looking during the few days they were up. There were five of them made, not sure how many sold, but they are really gorgeous.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I have to respond. Think what you will of me, I don't care. It would seem that I am the only one in this thread who played real no-shit baseball at a competitive level. I don't know if you folks, who I very highly respect when it comes to all the nuances of baseball cards, realize what you're saying, but you don't know jack about the game itself. Yes, players at the MLB level are bigger, stronger, faster today. And they break down with incredible regularity, protecting their $$$. But. I've played the game. I know all about 85 to 90 mph fastballs. I could hit them pretty well, if I guessed right. I know that there is a WORLD of difference between 85 to 90 to 95 and 95 to 100. Above 95, you will hear the baseball, whizzing. You won't catch up to it, unless you're something special, even if you know it's coming. If you think Walter Johnson topped out at 95 mph, you're delusional. If that was the case, and if I could somehow go back in time, you'd be collecting MY t205 an t206 cards today! I don't give a flying f what idiotic facts you're reading. They're wrong. They called him "The Big Train" because his fastball, when he put on the gas, made noise. I'm done with listening to this goofy, armchair nonsense.

James - curious to what extent the ball has changed over the years, and whether those changes might make a difference. For example, nowadays they toss out a ball after it hits the dirt. My understanding is that 100 years ago, they would use a ball for much longer. With a little wear, would a ball start to make noise at a lower velocity? For that matter, would a ball with a few more imperfections end up being a bit less aerodynamic, and so therefore might be slowed down by a bit more drag?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I have to respond. Think what you will of me, I don't care. It would seem that I am the only one in this thread who played real no-shit baseball at a competitive level. I don't know if you folks, who I very highly respect when it comes to all the nuances of baseball cards, realize what you're saying, but you don't know jack about the game itself. Yes, players at the MLB level are bigger, stronger, faster today. And they break down with incredible regularity, protecting their $$$. But. I've played the game. I know all about 85 to 90 mph fastballs. I could hit them pretty well, if I guessed right. I know that there is a WORLD of difference between 85 to 90 to 95 and 95 to 100. Above 95, you will hear the baseball, whizzing. You won't catch up to it, unless you're something special, even if you know it's coming. If you think Walter Johnson topped out at 95 mph, you're delusional. If that was the case, and if I could somehow go back in time, you'd be collecting MY t205 an t206 cards today! I don't give a flying f what idiotic facts you're reading. They're wrong. They called him "The Big Train" because his fastball, when he put on the gas, made noise. I'm done with listening to this goofy, armchair nonsense.

I respect your opinion, and I understand why you feel that way. I just disagree wholeheartedly. I would wager every penny I'll ever earn and my daughter's inheritance that Walter Johnson, or any of his contemporaries, never touched 100 mph. That's how confident I am. Not a snowball's chance in hell. I'd even go one step further and say that Walter Johnson was the only pitcher of his time who could even touch 90.

[Snowman]

I forget who it was, but there's a video out there of a pitching scout/coach that works with MLB pitchers to add velocity to their fastballs. He looks at their mechanics and makes minor adjustment after minor adjustment to add mph to their arms. This knowledge has worked its way down the system over the years, and now minor league guys and highschool arms are learning how to contort their bodies to attain maximum velocity. Hip flexor workouts, oblique exercises, deep lunges launching off the mound, wrist movements, angle of approach, it all adds up. Not to mention guys are just bigger and stronger today. But this guy was commenting on some old black and white footage of early HOFers and was asked how many mph he thought he could add to their fastballs based on their mechanics, and the guy literally started laughing and then said, "I don't know. A lot. 10-15? Maybe more probably." For whatever that's worth, I believe him. When I watch old footage, it really is hilarious watching these guys "pitch". There's just no way in hell those guys were throwing real heat. Not with those mechanics, and not when they're out there night after night pitching complete game after complete game. Remember, these guys were a decade removed from when the hitters could still request where they wanted the ball to be thrown. Half of these pitchers were just out there playing catch. The game was played on the base paths. It just wasn't even remotely the same game as today.

[cgjackson222]

Thought this was an interesting video showing WaJo's mechanics.

His long arms were like whips--even in slow motion, he looks fast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26bCah5DZAo

[FrankWakefield]

1 pitch velocity
2 contemporaries

1. OK... we aren't going to know, we will argue with our biases and perceptions. I think Walter Johnson and Smokey Joe Wood could pitch in the 90s. I think Matty could pitch in the 90s, IF he chose to do so. (I think he pitched to win games, not to dominate hitters.) I also think that they could pitch today and shut down modern hitters who do have some success against modern pitchers who are throwing in the high 90s. I think that Padres pitcher, Randy Jones, could shut down some modern hitters with that stuff he threw in the low 80s, unhittable stuff. Pitch velocity in not the sole indicator of pitching success. Among other factors, the ability to deceptively change speeds, is something that can make a difference.

2. More importantly, Johnson and Mathewson weren't exactly contemporaries. But there was some overlap. Matty was 7 years older and died 21 years earlier than Johnson. But think about the league they pitched against. Matty started pitching in 1900, pitching with his arm and his brain, 1914 was his last significantly effective season. Walter's first effective season was 1910, and his last 20 win season was 1925.

Ten years doesn't seem like much... but golly, what happened to the game during that time? In 1900 the balls stay in the game forever, foul balls being retrieved out of stands, brown with dirt and tobacco stains, soft... but midway into Walter's career he's throwing better baseballs, lively baseballs, but now against batters that are using slightly shorter bats with bigger diameter barrels and thinner handles. Bat physics changed drastically. The bats Babe Ruth used as a Yankee slugger would occasionally break. The bats Hans Wagner used would last a season or two. Most of Matty's games were pitched with the turn of the century. Walter's pitching is primarily with the lively clean baseballs and "slugger" bats. Walter pitched in over 100 more games.

From our perspective, without being a student of baseball history, it is easy for us to think of Walter and Matty as spot on contemporaries; after all, both are in T206 and Cracker Jacks. But they aren't.

Hmmm... who can throw heat now? I don't know, pick half a dozen of them. Put them on trains, crap lodging and diets, less adequate health care, no air conditioning, and then see how well they pitch.

I don't think any of us could now hit any of those guys. I think Walter had the better fast ball. I think they both coasted through their games at times, bearing down when necessary (something that would not be tolerated in this time of distinguishing pitches as either competitive or non-competitive). Walter and Matty pitched so as to start and finish the game. That was expected, 115 years ago. Nowadays, you seldom need a second hand to count a pitcher's complete games in a season with your fingers.

Who here associates something with the number 1.12? If that doesn't, how about 1.12 ERA??? Now you're thinking Bob Gibson's 1968 season. I'm a Cardinals fan, and saw Gibson pitch several times, including game 7 of the 1964 World Series. As much of a fan as I am of Mr. Gibson, I'm aware that Walter's 1913 ERA of 1.14 would have been less than Bob Gibson's, IF he had been throwing his best stuff at the end of the 1913 season. The Athletics had clenched the pennant in 1913, Walter pitched in a game where he grooved a few pitches for some of his friends, on the opposing team, the game was a light-hearted affair for both teams, I think a coach or two may have gotten an at bat. It could have been the last game of the season, Washington won, about everyone pitched, Walter gave up 2 runs recording 0 outs in a late inning. You can read about it in "Baseball's Big Train," by Henry Thomas, a gentleman who knows a right smart about baseball. A singularly knowledgeable baseball scholar. If you haven't acquired a copy of that book and read it, you should stop reading this and order a copy of that book. Back to Bob Gibson, what he did on the mound in 1968 was powerful. But he'd have fallen a point or two short of surpassing what Walter did in 1913, IF Walter had either been competitive, or simply stayed out of that game that was a fun time for the players.

If you think Walter could only muscle up to about 90, fine. I think he could throw significantly harder, approaching 100, if he wanted. But for not wanting to hit anyone with a pitch, I'd think he could put a 90 mph fastball in your ribs, and then put a 100 mph pitch in your side, a rib or two lower, and then you could tell us which one felt faster.

[ullmandds]

Wajo>cm.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Who here associates something with the number 1.12? If that doesn't, how about 1.12 ERA??? Now you're thinking Bob Gibson's 1968 season. I'm a Cardinals fan, and saw Gibson pitch several times, including game 7 of the 1964 World Series. As much of a fan as I am of Mr. Gibson, I'm aware that Walter's 1913 ERA of 1.14 would have been less than Bob Gibson's, IF he had been throwing his best stuff at the end of the 1913 season. The Athletics had clenched the pennant in 1913, Walter pitched in a game where he grooved a few pitches for some of his friends, on the opposing team, the game was a light-hearted affair for both teams, I think a coach or two may have gotten an at bat. It could have been the last game of the season, Washington won, about everyone pitched, Walter gave up 2 runs recording 0 outs in a late inning. You can read about it in "Baseball's Big Train," by Henry Thomas, a gentleman who knows a right smart about baseball. A singularly knowledgeable baseball scholar. If you haven't acquired a copy of that book and read it, you should stop reading this and order a copy of that book. Back to Bob Gibson, what he did on the mound in 1968 was powerful. But he'd have fallen a point or two short of surpassing what Walter did in 1913, IF Walter had either been competitive, or simply stayed out of that game that was a fun time for the players.

Thanks so much for the props, Frank, very much appreciated. And what a strange thing, for Walter to have lost such a significant record to what at the time must have seemed such an innocent and playful event. Would he care? Maybe a little, but not much, I don't think. He certainly wouldn't dwell on it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I forget who it was, but there's a video out there of a pitching scout/coach that works with MLB pitchers to add velocity to their fastballs. He looks at their mechanics and makes minor adjustment after minor adjustment to add mph to their arms. This knowledge has worked its way down the system over the years, and now minor league guys and highschool arms are learning how to contort their bodies to attain maximum velocity. Hip flexor workouts, oblique exercises, deep lunges launching off the mound, wrist movements, angle of approach, it all adds up. Not to mention guys are just bigger and stronger today. But this guy was commenting on some old black and white footage of early HOFers and was asked how many mph he thought he could add to their fastballs based on their mechanics, and the guy literally started laughing and then said, "I don't know. A lot. 10-15? Maybe more probably." For whatever that's worth, I believe him. When I watch old footage, it really is hilarious watching these guys "pitch". There's just no way in hell those guys were throwing real heat. Not with those mechanics, and not when they're out there night after night pitching complete game after complete game. Remember, these guys were a decade removed from when the hitters could still request where they wanted the ball to be thrown. Half of these pitchers were just out there playing catch. The game was played on the base paths. It just wasn't even remotely the same game as today.

Why would it be a surprise to find out that pitchers throw harder now than they did then? Is there any example in sports of the athletes of 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago, having superior skills than those of today, with its better conditioning, training, facilities, nutrition, working conditions, etc. That wouldn't make sense. So you can't really compare across generations, just take what they did in their time and try to judge how good they were compared to their contemporaries to attempt to single out the GOAT. I remember in my youth in the 1960s when Sammy Baugh was generally considered the greatest football player of all time because he had put up such a great record in so many different areas, but mostly at quarterback, for 15 years when very few NFL guys played close to that long. And while that should still earn him consideration these many years later, it would be laughable to argue that he'd be anywhere near as good on the field today as the worst backup QB. As for pitching complete games, what do you think the hitters of yesteryear were doing while the pitchers were cruising at half speed through their games as you suggest? Taking it easy, too, so they could make their contributions to the complete game and longevity records? Hell, no, and it wasn't like that at all. Pitchers knew how to pitch back then, well into the 70s and 80s, when fireball guys like Nolan Ryan were taking half their careers to discover that you don't have to put everything you have on the ball all the time to go deep and win. It's call pitching, as opposed to throwing, and thowbacks like Spahn, Palmer, Blyleven, etc., could still be examples to the young guys if they would pay attention. Oh, they throw so hard today, sure, but only for an inning or two, and only for a year or two before they need Tommy John. I'm actually convinced that at some point, every aspiring pro pitcher will get the surgery preemptively as soon as they are drafted. Having said all this, I am absolutely convinced that Walter Johnson was the exception to any comparison between today's pitchers and 100 years ago. His mechanics were so unique, the tremendous power so clearly generated more from his back and legs rather than his arm, I defy any pitching coach to tell me they could have made him any faster or improved his stamina, endurance, or longevity one bit. I don't believe it. I've been asked many times how hard I think he threw the ball, and I answer 100 for sure when he cranked it, maybe a MPH or two more on occasion. Big, strong, guy, even for today, and consider that in his peak years he had no out pitch--none at all! Just fastball after fastball. And with that great control, and his gentle nature, the hitters knew exactly where the ball was going to be, and they still couldn't hit it. Here comes another one, disappearing behind his back, then sweeping out of third base across the plate with what Cobb called a "hiss," and others described as a buzz or a whoosh. Good luck. Johnson was a freak of nature, look at his right arm in the old photos, he could scratch his knee standing straight up. See how close you get. One anecdote of the many I encountered in the research for my book: When Johnson arrived in D.C. from Idaho at the age of 19, Washington manager Joe Cantillon let him rest for a day before having him take the mound in batting practice before a game against the White Sox. Mind you, nobody had seen him throw, just Cliff Blankenship, who only played catch with Johnson in a field next to his boarding house in Weiser before "signing" him. The first batter, Jim Delehanty of the famous baseball family, takes the first pitch and starts walking back to the bench. Cantillon, anxious to see what the veteran Delehanty thinks of the kid, yells out "Where do you think you're going?" Delehanty continues on his way and replies, "I'm not going back there until I see how good his control is!" True story, as reported in the papers the next day. I don't believe these hitters today would be any less terrified to see and hear that ball or have any better luck that those 100 years ago. In fact, at the rate they strike out today, he would have finished his career with over 7,000 Ks, making Ryan's total look meager by comparison.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I have to respond. Think what you will of me, I don't care. It would seem that I am the only one in this thread who played real no-shit baseball at a competitive level. I don't know if you folks, who I very highly respect when it comes to all the nuances of baseball cards, realize what you're saying, but you don't know jack about the game itself. Yes, players at the MLB level are bigger, stronger, faster today. And they break down with incredible regularity, protecting their $$$. But. I've played the game. I know all about 85 to 90 mph fastballs. I could hit them pretty well, if I guessed right. I know that there is a WORLD of difference between 85 to 90 to 95 and 95 to 100. Above 95, you will hear the baseball, whizzing. You won't catch up to it, unless you're something special, even if you know it's coming. If you think Walter Johnson topped out at 95 mph, you're delusional. If that was the case, and if I could somehow go back in time, you'd be collecting MY t205 an t206 cards today! I don't give a flying f what idiotic facts you're reading. They're wrong. They called him "The Big Train" because his fastball, when he put on the gas, made noise. I'm done with listening to this goofy, armchair nonsense.

Well, first, I bow down to your obvious superiority. You played baseball so clearly you are the expert.

However, I don't think you ever made baseball's Hall of Fame, so I will defer to an even higher level of authority: HOF pitcher, broadcaster, and longtime student of the game, Jim Kaat. On page 123 of his book, "Still Pitching", he says of Whitey Ford:

"A year later I hooked up with Ford again, this time in Minnesota, where the bullpens were side by side, separated by a chain-link fence. You were so close you could practically reach across and shake hands with the guy you were pitching against. We're warming up and I could hear Whitey's fastball - "...whirrrrrr..." - it had that spin on it.

Sorry, but until you make the Hall of Fame, Kaat remains a higher authority than you, and he bears witness to the fact little junk ball pitcher Whitey Ford could also throw fastballs that "made noise." Above, you say a fastball achieves "noise" at and above 95 mph. Are you saying Ford threw that hard?

Whitey was also known for scuffing up baseballs, but that was standard fare in the days of Walt and Chris, Walter himself may not have doctored balls, but his catchers, infielders, or members of the opposing teams often did, plus the normal wear of baseballs that remained in play until they were lost in the stands.

And, by the way, one of Matty's nicknames was "Big 6." Also a reference to a train.

[irishdenny]

Longevity...
Popularity...
Dominance...

Historically Equaling the Promotions of Their Collectables!*

Unfortunately I don't Presently Own Mr Johnson Cards...
Sumthin' I Need to Remedy

[Belfast1933]

Two quick adds here… first, if you haven’t seen “Fastball” as noted here multiple times, do yourself a favor and check it out. It’s the best baseball documentary I’ve ever seen. Great video of WaJo talking pitching jib-jab to a ball boy. It’s old-timey gold.

And how about this for context? Walter Johnson has 110 career shutouts. Jacob Degrom has 84 career wins.

(Great thread - and yet somehow, we still find a grouchy grandpa on here yelling at the clouds for some unknown reason!)

[vintagerookies51]

Records in 1910 vs today...

1 Mile Run: 4:15 --> 3:47
100 m dash: 10.5 s --> 9.58s
High Jump: 1.98 m --> 2.45 m
Shotput: 15.54 m --> 23.56 m

With a century of improvements to training, technique, mechanics, etc. of course athletes are going to be better today. But alas, the oldheads of N54 have proven that the only athletic feat in the world that people have not improved at over the years is throwing a baseball because you could hear a noise as a WaJo pitch flew by.

I am a firm believer in that you need to compare how they dominated their era, though, so looking at stats it's hard to not call Walter Johnson the GOAT.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

Records in 1910 vs today...

1 Mile Run: 4:15 --> 3:47
100 m dash: 10.5 s --> 9.58s
High Jump: 1.98 m --> 2.45 m
Shotput: 15.54 m --> 23.56 m

With a century of improvements to training, technique, mechanics, etc. of course athletes are going to be better today. But alas, the oldheads of N54 have proven that the only athletic feat in the world that people have not improved at over the years is throwing a baseball because you could hear a noise as a WaJo pitch flew by.

I am a firm believer in that you need to compare how they dominated their era, though, so looking at stats it's hard to not call Walter Johnson the GOAT.

I agree that it's likely Walter Johnson and other pitchers of his era were not throwing as hard as pitchers consistently are today. However, there have been posts in this thread also talking about Nolan Ryan and Bob Feller throwing around 107-108 MPH. Are those to be believed? If so, they are both faster than what anyone has been measured at in recent times even though they were 50-70 years ago.

[jetsetr1]

Walter Johnson. Don't think there is a top 10 list on the planet where he isn't #1. Can't go wrong with either, they're on the pitching Mt. Rushmore. Fairly recent pickups of both below.

Also have Mathewson's T201 Mecca Double PSA 5 & S74 Silk Turkey SGC 5. Thank you if any sellers were from Net54.