Walter Johnson Vs. Christy Mathewson

[Leon]

Notebook cover...

[Rhotchkiss]

I think Johnson was the better pitcher of the two; he maybe is the best of all time. Mathewson was very very good, but his fame is larger than what he did on the field. Beside playing most of his career in the country’s largest city, he was a very handsome, college-educated, respectable and pious ball player at a time when ball players were considered low-lifes and bums. He helped legitimize the image of the baseball player and grow the sport into America’s game (nothing against Wajo who was a very good person too). Matty was the all American boy who played ball (heck, he ultimately died from serving his country in the military). If I had to win a game, I take Johnson all day every day. If I wanted to sell tickets and build franchise value, I would probably choose Matty.

[cgjackson222]

I think Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever. And I think if you are talking about other pitchers from the era, you have to include Grover Cleveland Alexander and Cy Young in the discussion in addition to Mathewson. Lefty Grove was probably the best early live-ball pitcher.

Johnson was dominant on so many levels:

-His 110 shutouts is the most ever (followed by Alexander at 90)

-He has the record for most seasons leading his League in strikeouts with 12 including 8 consecutive from 1912 through 1919 (Nolan Ryan had 11 titles). When he eclipsed 3,000 strikeouts in 1923, only five other pitchers had as many as 2,000 to their name. It would be 51 years before St. Louis Cardinals right-hander Bob Gibson became the second member of the 3,000 strikeout club.

-He had a 55 2/3rd scoreless streak in 1913 that remained the record for 55 years (Drysdale broke it).

-He was a very accurate pitcher, leading the league in fewest walks per nine innings twice and strikeouts to walk ratio 9 times (this may be a record).

-His 5 ERA titles is tied for the 3rd most ever with Mathewson and others (Lefty Grove had 9).

-His 1913 season may have been the best ever. Johnson had 36 wins (no on has had as many since) to only 7 losses (.837 winning %). He also led the League in ERA (1.14), Shutouts (11), strikeouts (243), Innings Pitched (346), Complete games (29), and every advanced metric (ERA+ of 259, FIP of 1.9, WHIP of .78, etc.). Opponents hit .187 off him, and he only walked 38 players (leading the league in walks per 9 innings). His 16.5 WAR (15.1 as a pitcher) has not been touched since.

As Hank Thomas points out in his amazing biography of the Big Train, Johnson was called in to pitch at the demands of the 1,000 cavalry soldiers attending the Nationals last game of the year in 1913, which in their annual tradition was an uncompetitive "joke game". His catcher hadn't played since a previous joke game a decade ago, and Johnson was touched for 2 hits after lobbing pitches over and then going back to centerfield, where he had been playing. The following pitcher let in both of Johnson's runners. Had it not been for that joke game, Johnson would have had a 1.09 ERA on the season, which would have been lower than Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA, the modern major league record for a starter.

During his time, it was widely regarded that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever.

Although Mathewson received more votes in the inaugural Hall of Fame class (205 votes to Johnson's 181), I think a lot of that had to do with sentiment towards Mathewson because of his early death.

Both Mathewson and Johnson were excellent people and greatly respected by their fellow players. Both were also extremely popular with fans. When Washington traveled, Johnson was a major attendance draw, and fans in other Cities often cheered for Johnson against their own team.

[jingram058]

I stumbled across this author and sportswriter John Kieran quote in one of my books:


"Mathewson was the best pitcher I ever saw. He was the best anyone ever saw. Let them name all the others. I don't care. Mathewson was better."

[rats60]

ERA Matty 2.13 WaJo 2.17
FIP Matty 2.26 WaJo 2.38
WHIP Matty 1.058 WaJo 1.061
Wins WaJo 417 Matty 373
ShO WaJo 110 Matty 79 + 4 WS
Ks WaJo 3509 Matty 2507
ERA+ WaJo 147 Matty 136

Postseason
ERA Matty 0.97 WaJo 2.52
WHIP Matty 0.836 WaJo 1.42

Hall of Fame Vote
Matty 90.7%
WaJo 83.6%

I give Johnson a slight advantage, but Mathewson's postseason dominance, especially his 3 shutouts in the 1905 World Series make it close.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Probably not real, but there's an anecdote about a hitter going down against Johnson on three straight called strikes, and complaining to the umpire that the third one sounded low.

[Snowman]

In what world was Cy Young a better pitcher than Christy Mathewson? I really don't get that argument.

And if the word "Wins" makes its way across your keyboard while forming your argument, then you should have your keyboard taken away from you.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Probably not real, but there's an anecdote about a hitter going down against Johnson on three straight called strikes, and complaining to the umpire that the third one sounded low.

Wait, hold the presses...Peter, weren't you the one leading the argument that, back in the Mathewson - Johnson era, pitchers were throwing the equivalent of peewee baseball today? 75 mph isn't going to make any sound at all. And if that's the case, how then did "The Big Train" get that nickname?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Wait, hold the presses...Peter, weren't you the one leading the argument that, back in the Mathewson - Johnson era, pitchers were throwing the equivalent of peewee baseball today? 75 mph isn't going to make any sound at all. And if that's the case, how then did "The Big Train" get that nickname?

I never said 75. I doubt it was consistently in the 90s either. No reason to think baseball is the exception to the rule that human performance has greatly improved over the last 100 years. And there is no doubt that in the context of his day, which is what counts, he was very fast.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

ERA Matty 2.13 WaJo 2.17
FIP Matty 2.26 WaJo 2.38
WHIP Matty 1.058 WaJo 1.061
Wins WaJo 417 Matty 373
ShO WaJo 110 Matty 79 + 4 WS
Ks WaJo 3509 Matty 2507
ERA+ WaJo 147 Matty 136

Postseason
ERA Matty 0.97 WaJo 2.52
WHIP Matty 0.836 WaJo 1.42

Hall of Fame Vote
Matty 90.7%
WaJo 83.6%

I give Johnson a slight advantage, but Mathewson's postseason dominance, especially his 3 shutouts in the 1905 World Series make it close.

I think it should be taken into consideration that Matty's great 3 shutout WS performance happened in 1905, near the beginning of his career, and Walter's WS opportunities were in 1924-25, at the tail end of his career.

Early days, clearly Young.

1901-1925 I put Walter at the top, without question, then Alexander, then Matty. Alex pitched in a tiny ballpark for a generally weak team. Matty pitched in the Polo Grounds for a powerhouse. Both won 373 games.

Grove, Spahn, and others come into the conversation later.