Walter Johnson Vs. Christy Mathewson

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By WAR, Johnson is something like 50 points ahead of Mathewson, but a few behind Young. By JAWS, Johnson is a bit ahead of Young, and hugely ahead of Mathewson. Mathewson of course pitched for a much better team and had more success, but I don't see it as even close. Maybe you could argue Young is the GOAT, it wouldn't be insane, but I would say Johnson..

I would argue that saying Young is the GOAT would in fact be insane. He shouldn't even be in anyone's top 20.

WaJo was probably a little bit better than Mathewson though. But I think it's a little bit closer than most people probably do.

[doug.goodman]

With apologies that I never get sick of posting these, they're tied if you are counting different m113 photos...

[G1911]

Johnson and Young have credible greatest of all-time arguments. Mathewson is pretty far behind by the numbers, but that's because he's compared to those two. I don't see any reasonable argument that Mathewson had a better career.

[Kawika]

Two fine gentlemen.

[GeoPoto]

Walter P. "Barney" Johnson. "The Big Train". Pitcher for the Washington Senators in 1907-1927. 417 wins and 34 saves in 21 MLB seasons. 1924 World Series champion. 1913 and 1924 AL Most Valuable Player. 3-time triple crown. 6-time AL wins leader. 5-time AL ERA leader. 12-time AL strikeout leader. He had a career ERA of 2.17 in 5,914.1 innings pitched. He pitched a no-hitter in 1920. He holds the MLB record with 110 career shutouts. MLB All-Time Team. Inducted to the MLB Hall of Fame in 1936. One of his best seasons was 1913 as he posted a record of 36-7 with a 1.14 ERA in 346 innings pitched.

[Leon]

Notebook cover...

[Rhotchkiss]

I think Johnson was the better pitcher of the two; he maybe is the best of all time. Mathewson was very very good, but his fame is larger than what he did on the field. Beside playing most of his career in the country’s largest city, he was a very handsome, college-educated, respectable and pious ball player at a time when ball players were considered low-lifes and bums. He helped legitimize the image of the baseball player and grow the sport into America’s game (nothing against Wajo who was a very good person too). Matty was the all American boy who played ball (heck, he ultimately died from serving his country in the military). If I had to win a game, I take Johnson all day every day. If I wanted to sell tickets and build franchise value, I would probably choose Matty.

[cgjackson222]

I think Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever. And I think if you are talking about other pitchers from the era, you have to include Grover Cleveland Alexander and Cy Young in the discussion in addition to Mathewson. Lefty Grove was probably the best early live-ball pitcher.

Johnson was dominant on so many levels:

-His 110 shutouts is the most ever (followed by Alexander at 90)

-He has the record for most seasons leading his League in strikeouts with 12 including 8 consecutive from 1912 through 1919 (Nolan Ryan had 11 titles). When he eclipsed 3,000 strikeouts in 1923, only five other pitchers had as many as 2,000 to their name. It would be 51 years before St. Louis Cardinals right-hander Bob Gibson became the second member of the 3,000 strikeout club.

-He had a 55 2/3rd scoreless streak in 1913 that remained the record for 55 years (Drysdale broke it).

-He was a very accurate pitcher, leading the league in fewest walks per nine innings twice and strikeouts to walk ratio 9 times (this may be a record).

-His 5 ERA titles is tied for the 3rd most ever with Mathewson and others (Lefty Grove had 9).

-His 1913 season may have been the best ever. Johnson had 36 wins (no on has had as many since) to only 7 losses (.837 winning %). He also led the League in ERA (1.14), Shutouts (11), strikeouts (243), Innings Pitched (346), Complete games (29), and every advanced metric (ERA+ of 259, FIP of 1.9, WHIP of .78, etc.). Opponents hit .187 off him, and he only walked 38 players (leading the league in walks per 9 innings). His 16.5 WAR (15.1 as a pitcher) has not been touched since.

As Hank Thomas points out in his amazing biography of the Big Train, Johnson was called in to pitch at the demands of the 1,000 cavalry soldiers attending the Nationals last game of the year in 1913, which in their annual tradition was an uncompetitive "joke game". His catcher hadn't played since a previous joke game a decade ago, and Johnson was touched for 2 hits after lobbing pitches over and then going back to centerfield, where he had been playing. The following pitcher let in both of Johnson's runners. Had it not been for that joke game, Johnson would have had a 1.09 ERA on the season, which would have been lower than Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA, the modern major league record for a starter.

During his time, it was widely regarded that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever.

Although Mathewson received more votes in the inaugural Hall of Fame class (205 votes to Johnson's 181), I think a lot of that had to do with sentiment towards Mathewson because of his early death.

Both Mathewson and Johnson were excellent people and greatly respected by their fellow players. Both were also extremely popular with fans. When Washington traveled, Johnson was a major attendance draw, and fans in other Cities often cheered for Johnson against their own team.

[Johnny T]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Two fine gentlemen.

Wow...just WOW!!!

[Casey2296]

-
Love and collect both Matty and Johnson, can't go wrong with either one of them and both outstanding humans.
-

[D. Bergin]

Walter beats out Mathewson, but it's not exactly a mauling. Walter had a longer career so is pretty far ahead of him in counting stats. Gets much closer when you compare 7 year primes. Walter still edges him.

If you really need a tiebreaker, "The Big Train" was the superior hitter. It was an outlier, but Johnson hit an incredible .433 in 107 plate appearances during the 1925 season.

Christy wasn't completely useless at bat (for a pitcher), but Walter was much better.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-Love and collect both Matty and Johnson, any go wrong with either one of them and both outstanding humans.
-

This.